Seems we bought a Project Boat.

[nofacey]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

If using even a small solar panel, NEVER connect one directly to a battery without a controller. You WILL cook and kill a battery with direct solar connections without a controller. An inexpensive controller will cost ~$20.


Why? Solar panels' voltage is too high for battery charging.


Do I Need a Controller for Solar?

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowner...d.php?t=144557

Stu, the operative word here is “small”. A 5W solar panel with an open circuit voltage of 18V in bright sun is probably about right for a battery maintainer charger, and definitely would not harm a daysailor temporarily hooked in away from home.
Would a bigger panel with controller be better? Absolutely - but you CAN use exterior plywood, you don’t HAVE to replace every bit of standing rigging, and given a trickle charger sized solar panel, you do not HAVE to have a charge controller.

My thoughts are towards getting a simple boat back out on the water for minimum cost, not prep a world cruiser.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by nofacey

Stu, the operative word here is “small”. A 5W solar panel with an open circuit voltage of 18V in bright sun is probably about right for a battery maintainer charger, and definitely would not harm a daysailor temporarily hooked in away from home.
Would a bigger panel with controller be better? ............... and given a trickle charger sized solar panel, you do not HAVE to have a charge controller.

My thoughts are towards getting a simple boat back out on the water for minimum cost, not prep a world cruiser.

I disgree. Here is a portion of the link, which explains why. If they have even a small trickle panel and what they WILL have is a SMALL, single battery, they could have an expensive problem. A controller costs $20, a battery cost twice to four times that. Why would anyone CHANCE it?


There is also lots of information out there suggesting that a solar panel of 10% of capacity, in wattage, or 1.5% of capacity in amperage does not need a charge controller? Yes, in many cases where batteries are used or cycled daily, or even sometimes every third or fourth day this "unregulated charging" can work and can be a sort of "truth".

Conversely when batteries are left to sit for weeks at a time, on a solar panel with no voltage regulation, it can become a dangerous situation to battery health and quickly becomes an "untruth"... With many boats, they often sit for days or multiple weeks between use with all loads turned OFF. In these situations the batteries can still get to 100% full even with just a 10% of "C" panel in wattage, and can certainly over-charge with 1.5% of "C" in panel amperage. When they eventually get to "full" they will have the voltage pushed well beyond the safe zone or where it where it should be.

[slfro85]

Originally Posted by nofacey

Lots of readers making mountains out of molehills here.....this a small project boat, great to learn how to fix & sail....good choice!

I’d suggest you do the minimum now to make it useable, and tackle the cosmetic once you’ve been sailing & have decided that work is worthwhile.

...

Go for the quick win.....do critical work to get boat in the water, go sailing, and then decide how much more work/$$ you want to commit.

It’s a great first boat......enjoy!

Trimmed for length, but I tried to address most things.

Bottom paint: this is honestly very-last-phase cosmetic because we don’t like how it looks. Which is admittedly rather vain and doesn’t matter in the LEAST for practical (to us) purposes. Could probably get away with marine paint stripper and scraping it off. But later.

Water tank: I don’t know what it was made of but it wasn’t metal. I’ll attach a picture from before he took it out, but when he picked it up it crumbled. And it smelled like you would expect 40-year-old mildew to smell. We probably need to at least flush the water line too.

Sails: The mainsail is in almost perfect condition, just a little wrinkled from being wrapped up and stored. Genoa is also in good condition but the binding on the edge has come off the edge. I still have all of the binding and there are no holes or tears so we bought sail thread to sew the binding back on. I will probably do that by hand because I don’t think my sewing machine is up to the task. Jib may need replacing; it has some holes near the binding. I suspect the last time it was used it got put away damp based on where all the staining is and where the holes are. I plan to research patching it but I think I would feel better if we just replaced it altogether.

Wiring: might have to completely replace this, which will require at minimum consulting with an electrician who knows boat wiring. We have a few marine batteries (we have a backyard lake and use a trolling motor on a jonboat) so we used a freshly-charged one to test out the interior lights and got nothing. The only light on the outside is the mast light. Boat did not come with a radio; we’re looking at handheld VHF radios. .

We found a small solar panel in one of the cockpit storage areas. Don’t know how to connect it but we have it.

Rigging wire: I think he already threw the damaged one away but we have the corresponding wire for the other side.

Bulkhead: definitely needs replacing and we will get the materials for that. I was able to sand the mold off the compression post in ten seconds - the post is not soft, cracked, or wobbly so I don’t think it needs replacing right now.

[slfro85]

Forgot the picture and couldn’t figure out how to add it in an edit.

[Pat_D]

Congratulations from another Paceship owner (1979 PY26)!
Question: is there a compression post inside, directly under the mast? If so, the bulkheads may not be structural. Mine arent. My bulkheads are screwed to the rolled fiberglass liner ("cast fiberglass strips", probably) -- looking at one of your photos with the missing/rotted part of the bulkhead, look on the back side to see if there are/were any middlin large headed screws in the fiberglass that might have held it on.

Check your chainplates--these are what the shrouds to the mast are anchored on to inside the boat: find where the shrouds meet the deck, and look under, inside. If they are attached to the bulkheads, then those bulkheads are important. But mine are attached to fiberglass ribs in the hull. The chainplates should not have any cracks.

Cables (shrouds and stays): if they look good, they probably are. Run a paper towel along them and if there are any hooks (broken wires) those will catch the towel and be obvious. A few are OK for most sailing, but dont let them catch you. Replace the obviously bad one.

Teak: ignore, or teak oil. easy. But step on them to see if they are strong enough not to break.


Stove: Probably came with a Kenyon pressurized alcohol. Use anything that suits you. Generally store fuel outside but you can cook inside. Almost all sailboats your size or larger have inside stoves. use common sense.

Centerboard:
from the picture, it should have a few inches of movement. Try pulling on the pennant inside, pushing up from the outside, just to see if its free. Don't worry if its not (at this point), and try it in the water. Open up the top of the standpipe and look down inside, play with the line, and you can start to see how it works. You can replace the pennant anywhere, board up or down, on the hard or in the water. Just sew a new line onto it end-to-end and pull it through the system. The pin (visible in one photo as a round depression in the keel) is probably good, but see how the board works in the water: does it knock too much, can you tell if there is excessive play? These are pretty subjective, but as you use it you'll get a feel if its right or not. Go ahead and replace when your list gets pretty small.

Go sailing. There are a lot of nay-sayers here. PY's are great boats--I took mine from Detroit to Dominican Republic (so far). Sailboats are not rocketships--you and BF can have fun sailing while you improve it, and sure, go ahead and have the coast guard inspect before bringing the kiddos.

The forces on a boat this size are not great--you'll have oodles of safety factor in ANY nice-weather sailing. So stay out of storms until you gain experience and confidence that the boat is up to snuff.

Contact me if you like, and have too much fun.

[slfro85]

Originally Posted by Pat_D

Congratulations from another Paceship owner (1979 PY26)!
Question: is there a compression post inside, directly under the mast? If so, the bulkheads may not be structural. Mine arent. My bulkheads are screwed to the rolled fiberglass liner ("cast fiberglass strips", probably) -- looking at one of your photos with the missing/rotted part of the bulkhead, look on the back side to see if there are/were any middlin large headed screws in the fiberglass that might have held it on.

Check your chainplates--these are what the shrouds to the mast are anchored on to inside the boat: find where the shrouds meet the deck, and look under, inside. If they are attached to the bulkheads, then those bulkheads are important. But mine are attached to fiberglass ribs in the hull. The chainplates should not have any cracks.

Cables (shrouds and stays): if they look good, they probably are. Run a paper towel along them and if there are any hooks (broken wires) those will catch the towel and be obvious. A few are OK for most sailing, but dont let them catch you. Replace the obviously bad one.

Teak: ignore, or teak oil. easy. But step on them to see if they are strong enough not to break.


Stove: Probably came with a Kenyon pressurized alcohol. Use anything that suits you. Generally store fuel outside but you can cook inside. Almost all sailboats your size or larger have inside stoves. use common sense.

Centerboard:
from the picture, it should have a few inches of movement. Try pulling on the pennant inside, pushing up from the outside, just to see if its free. Don't worry if its not (at this point), and try it in the water. Open up the top of the standpipe and look down inside, play with the line, and you can start to see how it works. You can replace the pennant anywhere, board up or down, on the hard or in the water. Just sew a new line onto it end-to-end and pull it through the system. The pin (visible in one photo as a round depression in the keel) is probably good, but see how the board works in the water: does it knock too much, can you tell if there is excessive play? These are pretty subjective, but as you use it you'll get a feel if its right or not. Go ahead and replace when your list gets pretty small.

Go sailing. There are a lot of nay-sayers here. PY's are great boats--I took mine from Detroit to Dominican Republic (so far). Sailboats are not rocketships--you and BF can have fun sailing while you improve it, and sure, go ahead and have the coast guard inspect before bringing the kiddos.

The forces on a boat this size are not great--you'll have oodles of safety factor in ANY nice-weather sailing. So stay out of storms until you gain experience and confidence that the boat is up to snuff.

Contact me if you like, and have too much fun.

There is a compression post, which looks to be in good shape. No chainplates attached to the walls. I saw a few photos of a PY23 without either wall; we could possibly remove it without replacing it, but we want to keep it for toilet privacy - well, such as can be expected on a small boat with a closet’s worth of “living” space! We plan to paint the interior (to that end will sand the glue smoothish and not worry too much about lumps) and would rather not have to replace the wall after we paint. Since the other side is fine, we’ll just replace the damaged part and go from there.

The centerboard does move - Seller showed Boyfriend how to raise and lower it (I was not in the boat at that time), but since it’s on the trailer we can’t lower it completely. We’re looking into sailboat jack stands to get it off the ground high enough to do that. We don’t live near enough to a boat yard or marina with a lift to be worth the drive, since we only have weekends to work on big stuff like that.

After talking with Boyfriend today, I think the plan is to start with the centerboard trunk. What I suspect/hope is that the last owner who did anything to it used a rust converter and painted over it, rather than cleaning it off and starting fresh. So we’re going to buy rust remover and marine paint stripper and clean it down to metal, see what we’re working with. I really hope it isn’t so badly rusted that it needs a complete replacement. We’re also ordering fairing compound and epoxy primer so we have it on hand immediately to recoat it once we get it clean and inspected.

It is frustrating that I have no maintenance records on this boat at all. The captain’s log we found had five maintenance entries, all for a motor that was no longer with the boat when we got it. We will start a new log so we have a record of everything from here on out.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by slfro85

Forgot the picture and couldn’t figure out how to add it in an edit.

In the future: you need to use the Go Advanced button during editing and then scroll down to attachments.

[Pat_D]

Don't worry about the keel--its cast iron and bulletproof. Once you clean it up it'll all be there. But, that brings to min keel bolts: look in the bilge for the row of big bolts, make sure they look halfway decent and tight. And look outside at the keel/hull joint, it should be tight. Or research how to fix it.

I love my "maintenance" log--I try to note everything I see that needs doing, sketch measurements, and note what I did. Great fun to read and once in a while suprised how much is crossed off. I don't care too much about the Prev. Owner's stuff, just check everything that needs checking and go from there.

It sounds like once you get the rigging done, you're ready to go test sailing. Pretty much the worst that can happen is not too bad.

PS Just saw the G& Abby picts: definitely same build and parts as my PY26. You'll be happy and fine on that boat.

PPS I used to be a member of the paceship website at paceship.org--super informative site. It died a few years ago. Dont know if it will revive. Let me know if you find a good owners group, please.

[captain38]

Congrats from an old Curmudgeon. Indeed you have purchased a project, and asked a lot of very good questions, most of which have the same amswer, "Well, it depends!" And none of which can be answered in a forum like this. The answers require well considered, experienced analysis.
My advise is hire someone with sailboat maintenance experience, and start learning. 50% of your knowledge will be acquired by learning the jargon, starting with the name of each part of your boat... bulkheads, not walls.

[conchaway]

" A boat is a hole in the water into which one throws money". Welcome!

[rossdv8]

Originally Posted by slfro85

but I’m honestly kind of annoyed at not knowing about the rotten bulkhead before we bought it.

“We’re keeping this boat,” he says, “even if it takes five years and $10,000 I fix it.” Since I know I’m not likely to outstubborn him, I found a few nearby repair shops and have sent some emails to see who can help/refer me to help.

I've bought several similarsized boats in the last 20 years and sold one, lost 2 to cyclones / rocks.
The little 18 footer I sold was just neglected, but two more were in similar condition to yours.

I got them to a boat yard where I could work on them, and hired a bloke who was good with fibreglass yachts to help me repair the two that had been sitting half full of salt water, and leaking rain.

These days there are lots of YouTube videos, as well as people here to teach you how to do most repairs.
Fir example, in my last yacht, the weight of the mast was taken by a plywood bulkhead that formed the wall and doorway between the cabin and the vee betrth.

Rain had got in via leaking mast step bolts and caused the ply, which was held in place by fibreglass all around the front and back edges (as yours seems to be).

It looked like an expensive fix until I was shown that a mast can be raised in place, and glass can be ground back.
The the rotten plywood under the mast step was cut out, a filler piece glassed in, and filler applied to make it like one piece. Then a metal plate was glassed over that and sealed with sikaflex. From memory the plate was about 6mm and I had it slightly curved to fit the cabin top. It wasn;t expensive and it spread the load of the mast.

Inside, the wooden patch was sanded back and the new mast step holes were laid, then the jacks were eased and the mast lowered the inch or so as the shrouds and backstay were tightened. Our backstay was like the one on the OP's yacht, so that hob was easy.

On the inside the rotten area was cut out, a template made of the hole where it had been cut and a piece of ply the right size glassed in place.

After that a plywood 'doubler' was fibreglassed front and back over the lot. It was a bit rough and ready, but it worked for the 7 years I lived in that boat, and under the paint, on an old boat (from the 70s) nobody even commented.

Between my last 2 yachts I had a lot of the other problems mentioned by slfro85, as well as a few of my own. Some I fixed right away, others I fixed as I could, many of them on the water over about 10 years (on one) and 7 years (on the other), which sprt of spread the ciost into manageable chunks.

I learned that I can fix a lot of 'unfixable' things, and that 'you'll need a boatyard for that' often just means it is a little harder to fix on a trailer or on the water!

You've spent the money - you may as well treat the rest like a hobby. It is a bit like owning a car bought for off roading or camping or for show.

Or like owning a horse!
There's always something you need for your hobby..
Unexpected vet bills comes to mind

[Lionshooter]

As far as the bulkheads go, I can't really make a full determination based on the partial photos. I do believe the chainplates for the shrouds are attached to them. I'm referencing the 2"x6" plates in the upper corners. That presents a serious problem with the detached bulkheads. A few decades ago, I owned a Spirit 23 very similar in design and layout (aren't they all). I wanted to turn it into a heavy air ocean sailer. And I did, but there were a lot of major modifications that I won't get into here. I sailed that little boat all over the Caribbean and Bahamas for 10 years. It took me through a Force 5 gale with 40' seas off Hatteras that took down a 54' ketch and a 40' Cat. Five people died. My little pocket cruiser sustained not one bit of damage. One of the biggest mods I made was replacing the tiny 3" mast with a substantially heavier 5" mast off a Catalina 25. Now I had fore and aft lower shrouds instead of just the single set. I got rid of all the chainplates inside and bolted tangs to the outside of the hull, backed up by heavy 1/4" aluminum plates. The boat would disintegrate before that sucker ever fell down. With the chainplates relocated, the bulkheads became structurally unnecessary. I removed the top half and replaced them with curtains. That opened up the small interior a lot but maintained privacy for the head and V-berth bunk when they were closed. It also compensated a little for the heavier mast since the bulkheads were heavy particleboard. (What kind of idiot engineer would put particleboard in a boat?)

As for the battery and charger, there seems to be a difference of opinions. Of course there are. We are all sailors and love to argue about nothing and anything. I can tell you what I have had on my current boat for the past 5-6 years. My 9.9 HP starts on the first push of the button using a small lawn tractor battery that I bought at Advance Auto for $20. It has never run down and has never failed. Attached to the battery with the provided spring clips is a solar-powered battery tender. I'll attach a photo. (1.8W 12V Portable Solar Car Battery Trickle Charger Maintainer) I found it on Amazon for $20 and it too has never failed me. After 4 months of winter, the battery was still fully charged.

My galley on the Spirit slid out from under the cockpit. It was fitted with a Coleman 2-burner propane camp stove. I kept the disposable bottles in the cockpit locker. Disposable cylinders are quite safe and I have never heard of one leaking but I still stored them outside just in case.

If the boat is not going to be left in the water for any extended period, skip the bottom paint unless you want it for cosmetic reasons.

I can't help with the water tank replacement but I would find some sort of plastic tank to replace it and invent a way to attach it.
Teak. Big PITA! A lot of ocean sailors let it go gray because there comes a time when it becomes just too damn much trouble to keep it varnished. Others clean it periodically and oil it. I eventually replaced every bit of mine with stainless steel and plastic.

Feel free to contact me with any questions to problems. I have 40+ years of experience with every size boat but especially small pocket cruisers.

Solar charger

[slfro85]

There aren’t plates in the upper corners; the photo with the mirror was from the other side of the same rotted piece (sitting in the V-berth) and I think those bolts in the ceiling above the light fixture are where the chainplates attach.

[Spot]

Slfro85, the two latest 'big picture' pictures are very good, thanks for adding them.

I was a little concerned when earlier pictures showed the bulkhead nestled in a heavy pre-molded fiberglass slots, no real tabbing, and various bits of strapping were placed about where chain plates would be on a more typical bulkhead. Now that we can see the deck/ceiling hardware and some more of the heavy glassing around the bulkhead, and knowing there is a compression post...perhaps this bulkhead was designed as a visual partition and a place to hang stuff first and is not cross member A#1 holding the boat together. I would feel really good about this analysis if one had pictures of other Py23's with the same construction. If this is true, that these bulkheads are partitions rather than structural, they may have been placed it in the slots before the deck was attached to the hull so they may be interesting to remove and replace. Perhaps re-fit with vertical tongue and groove boards? For me this detail would bode well for keeping the project alive.

What is that box a few pictures upstream? Electrical? My boat was wired with doorbell wire and random bits. I switched it over to stranded wire and LED's as temporary 'construction' wiring. When I am close to being done I will convert to marine tinned duplex wiring. I will attach my current schematic below. I did add a fuse between the solar controller and battery after a little reading on the subject. My solar panel is 50w and the controller is the matching Suner Power from Amazon. They were easy to deal with when the controller failed prematurely. It feeds a U1 sized lawn mower battery through the fuse and then goes from there. My system more or less runs lights and a small GPS/fish finder. If I get out on longer sails I will probably switch to a bigger battery, the small one was laying around when I started and has worked for a couple years as-is.

[slfro85]

Spot, the box was the old water tank, which I think had never been replaced at all. It crumbled into pieces when Boyfriend removed it. Wikipedia tells me it was a 12-gallon tank so we’re going to look for a plastic replacement in the same size.

The wiring is all in one of the cockpit compartments. I know exactly zilch about electrical work but when we connected a battery the other day we got no power at all, so we think the wiring may be bad. It may require an electrician’s visit.

Regarding the bulkhead, I did see a picture somewhere of another PY23 (might be a newer year, but I can’t imagine the design has changed much) where they had taken it (and the toilet) out completely.