Sail boat engine choice - electric or diesel

[seandepagnier]

If you burn diesel your moral values are similar to historic slave owners. I'm pretty sure that most people if born in the era of slavery would have thought it was justified and went along with it, as they are only human and that's what people thought back then.

george washington was a slave owner and a criminal yet he and many others justified their actions because they didn't want to give up their lifestyle. He freed his slaves after he died after it had no effect on him. In fact, he was morally superior to most cruisers because at least he acknowledged his actions were wrong. Many other slave owners did not.



The issue of slavery closely parallels the justification for fossil fuel use today as it unjustly takes advantage of many (future generations and wildlife included) for the meager benefit of a few in the present time.



Cruising around on boats just doesn't need diesel power, it never did and it never will.



All of the arguments in favor of diesel so far have been selfish and unjustified. You are obviously too lazy to raise the sails because there is wind enough to sail 95% of the time and the rest of the time you can just wait. This is possible without any electric motors or anything like that and I am continued to be disgusted by the commenters here who have no inclination to change or do better.


It's going to take another war to put you in your place and it's really sad to see the older folks who will mostly get away with this bad behavior and die before retribution strikes. Imagine the year is 1800, and situation of what is right and wrong is clear but change is not happening yet because some people just refuse to do the right thing. It's going to take time but regardless what is morally wrong will come to light eventually one way or another and billions will suffer for it and the blood will be on your hands.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

If you burn diesel your moral values are similar to historic slave owners. I'm pretty sure that most people if born in the era of slavery would have thought it was justified and went along with it, as they are only human and that's what people thought back then.

george washington was a slave owner and a criminal yet he and many others justified their actions because they didn't want to give up their lifestyle. He freed his slaves after he died after it had no effect on him. In fact, he was morally superior to most cruisers because at least he acknowledged his actions were wrong. Many other slave owners did not.



The issue of slavery closely parallels the justification for fossil fuel use today as it unjustly takes advantage of many (future generations and wildlife included) for the meager benefit of a few in the present time.



Cruising around on boats just doesn't need diesel power, it never did and it never will.



All of the arguments in favor of diesel so far have been selfish and unjustified. You are obviously too lazy to raise the sails because there is wind enough to sail 95% of the time and the rest of the time you can just wait. This is possible without any electric motors or anything like that and I am continued to be disgusted by the commenters here who have no inclination to change or do better.


It's going to take another war to put you in your place and it's really sad to see the older folks who will mostly get away with this bad behavior and die before retribution strikes. Imagine the year is 1800, and situation of what is right and wrong is clear but change is not happening yet because some people just refuse to do the right thing. It's going to take time but regardless what is morally wrong will come to light eventually one way or another and billions will suffer for it and the blood will be on your hands.

You do realize just how rude and disrespectful you are sounding?
You do realize that you just lost any credibility wrt your designs and alternative propulsion arguments .

Personally I just am happy to burn my 5 to 7 gallons of fuel in the engine and 10 in my furnace every winter . Just to be able to sail and cruise year round in these northern lattitudes.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

If you burn diesel your moral values are similar to historic slave owners. I'm pretty sure that most people if born in the era of slavery would have thought it was justified and went along with it, as they are only human and that's what people thought back then.

george washington was a slave owner and a criminal yet he and many others justified their actions because they didn't want to give up their lifestyle. He freed his slaves after he died after it had no effect on him. In fact, he was morally superior to most cruisers because at least he acknowledged his actions were wrong. Many other slave owners did not.



The issue of slavery closely parallels the justification for fossil fuel use today as it unjustly takes advantage of many (future generations and wildlife included) for the meager benefit of a few in the present time.



Cruising around on boats just doesn't need diesel power, it never did and it never will.



All of the arguments in favor of diesel so far have been selfish and unjustified. You are obviously too lazy to raise the sails because there is wind enough to sail 95% of the time and the rest of the time you can just wait. This is possible without any electric motors or anything like that and I am continued to be disgusted by the commenters here who have no inclination to change or do better.


It's going to take another war to put you in your place and it's really sad to see the older folks who will mostly get away with this bad behavior and die before retribution strikes. Imagine the year is 1800, and situation of what is right and wrong is clear but change is not happening yet because some people just refuse to do the right thing. It's going to take time but regardless what is morally wrong will come to light eventually one way or another and billions will suffer for it and the blood will be on your hands.

You are using a computer or phone to post this. The rare earths used to make the parts in the device produce toxic waste, pollution and habitat destruction in the mining process. The deposition process to make the chips in the phone and the process to make the solar cells in your solar panel also generate seriously toxic waste not to mention the electronic waste that is eventually left behind when your computer or phone is outdated or dies.

Do you paint your boat, use antifouling? More pollution both in the use and the manufacture.

Batteries? More pollution and toxics.

Sails? Are yours made of organic cotton, hand woven by well paid adults (no child labor) or are they synthetic fiber? You know synthetic fibers are made from oil based chemicals. This goes for all your clothing too.

Do you eat only locally produced, organically grown food and ride a bike to purchase directly from the farmer? If not, you are contributing to burning fossil fuels to grow and transport the food you eat.

The list is endless. Maybe examine your own life before you criticize others.

[wingssail]

Sean, Other CF members had urged me to let you be, you are a little bit unbalanced, or something, and I should not even respond to you, but honestly, I think you just need a little redirection, or I hope so.

You are urging people to stop burning diesel oil, as if it is the same as being a slave owner in the 1800's, which of course, looking back from today, was wrong. As you rightly say, people back then thought it was justified but of course it was not. Honestly, this is a different situation.

This is not a moral question about the freedom and human rights of slaves. Is it a question about the future of our planet? Yes, but it is an arguable point. Should we reduce our use of hydrocarbons? Yes. Should we all go back to the stone age and give up cars and public transportation and electronics and energy? All 7.5 billion of us? I think that could not happen. Most of us are not a fortunate as you are Sean, we are too many to be bicyclists living on wood fires and walking to the corner store. Can't happen. You are reminiscing over something that never existed and certainly cannot happen now.

Recognize Sean, that what you are proposing for boaters means that nearly all of them would simply have to give up boating. Do you really imagine that all of us could say, starting today, that we can just sit in our boats and wait for wind?

Get real Sean. That means the end of boating for most people. Is that realistic? I get it, that's fine with you, because you are fortunate. But other people have families, homes to keep up, jobs to go to. So you do not. Great for you. Stop preaching an unrealistic scenario. The stone age is long since gone, you need to stop reminiscing for Barney Rubble. That romance has long since been found to be a myth.

Now if you want to do something, get off of your pontificating stump, and start to do something real to demonstrate your cool ideas.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

If you burn diesel your moral values are similar to historic slave owners. I'm pretty sure that most people if born in the era of slavery would have thought it was justified and went along with it, as they are only human and that's what people thought back then.

george washington was a slave owner and a criminal yet he and many others justified their actions because they didn't want to give up their lifestyle. He freed his slaves after he died after it had no effect on him. In fact, he was morally superior to most cruisers because at least he acknowledged his actions were wrong. Many other slave owners did not.



The issue of slavery closely parallels the justification for fossil fuel use today as it unjustly takes advantage of many (future generations and wildlife included) for the meager benefit of a few in the present time.



Cruising around on boats just doesn't need diesel power, it never did and it never will.



All of the arguments in favor of diesel so far have been selfish and unjustified. You are obviously too lazy to raise the sails because there is wind enough to sail 95% of the time and the rest of the time you can just wait. This is possible without any electric motors or anything like that and I am continued to be disgusted by the commenters here who have no inclination to change or do better.


It's going to take another war to put you in your place and it's really sad to see the older folks who will mostly get away with this bad behavior and die before retribution strikes. Imagine the year is 1800, and situation of what is right and wrong is clear but change is not happening yet because some people just refuse to do the right thing. It's going to take time but regardless what is morally wrong will come to light eventually one way or another and billions will suffer for it and the blood will be on your hands.

Guilty as charged. I agree with most of what you say.

I think sailing is a selfish persuit reserved for us priveledged few. Perhaps we should be devoting our lives to medical research looking for cancer cures or some such noble endevors instead of running away from our humantarian responsibilties on a boat.

It could also be argued that most of the people are lower impact and are aware of and are trying to reduce their burning of fuels. I would say in the overall scale of disgustingness the people on this forum, espec this thread, are very low on that scale.

I have found that attacking other disgustingly guilty people tends not to further my cause or strengthen my discussion points. You know what they say about catching flies with honey.

It certainly takes all types and I have learnt a lot from your ideas. Please keep up the good work and please be patient with us selfish fuel burners, but are trying to be better (perfect maybe not quite).

[carstendenmark]

I think my thread has moved a bit away from the topic...

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Or more like having that 20 or 30 minutes of electric to correct the problem with the diesel.

Yes maybe you are correct. Obviously completely dependant of how much you spent to get what size batt bank.

But I guess 'only' 20 mins of extra motoring to get us in a better position is better than no minutes.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

I think my thread has moved a bit away from the topic...

After 18 pages, what do you expect? Most of the substantive responses in any thread show up in the first few pages. After that, they nearly always digress, sometimes wildly... it's just life on the internet.

And while Sean's thoughts are well beyond most folks horizons, they are provocative and have stimulated some interesting conversations along with the bashing. He does seem to walk the walk in many ways; not many will choose to follow in his footsteps, but if he sways a few in the lower consumption direction I reckon it is a favorable outcome.

Jim

[AKA-None]

I’m just not sure you can get where you want to with the current hull designs

[Shaneesprit]

Well your the Engineer and I have to say I agree, I can’t wait to see a motor big enough to run the cold water tap on my boat turned into a propulsion engine. (Motor)
However one of the best pieces of advice ever given to me was “so rather than tell someone they are wrong, take there ideas on board and prove that they don’t work and there in removing the doubt”

So with this in mind send me the boat and battery data.and the associated claims of power and distance. I will then ask for any extra information I need, then I will devise a test to prove that the system does indeed meet the spec or not. Then you can make a video of the you carrying out the tests
This is basically what I do for a living.

PS my 25Hp Diesel is too big for my boat in my opinion my 25ft Cat could probably get away with half this, but the weight saving does not add up, and the damage to the environment from replacing the diesel Engine also does not stack up in environmental or cost.
At 12HP I would be a bit light on power but I think I could manage, any less than that and I would be in real danger.
I think personally that the large prop is being compared to a wind turbine, that actually needs an electric motor to get it going in the first place - they cannot start them selves up, put this on a boat and call for power you will need a huge motor and HP to get it going.
At the weekend I got caught out a little with Autopilot and a sail issue, at the same time plus a strong tide - The only time I have ever fully pushed the throttle from idle to full - I was very glad for everyone of those 25 Beta Horses!

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

If you burn diesel your moral values are similar to historic slave owners. I'm pretty sure that most people if born in the era of slavery would have thought it was justified and went along with it, as they are only human and that's what people thought back then...

You didn't say we are worse than Hitler or Stalin for burning diesel? Whew! For a second there I thought this post was going to be the ramblings of an extremist.

[Shaneesprit]

(they spoil it polluting the air and water in harbors without even bothering to use catalytic converters) The fumes from diesel spills give me headaches and the harbor here has a slick more often than not. My best experiences are meeting other engine-free cruisers.[/QUOTE]

While I agree with you that 509 miles of fuel seems a little excessive.
I can’t agree on the Catalytic converter issue, you need to be a little better read on the subject, a catalyst uses up to 25% more fuel in the first place and was sold to the environmentalist as a quick fix back in the 1990s yes it does some good but also a lot of bad, it turns most of the emissions into green house gas, also while cold the gases produced are quite toxic, so as it only works when really hot, the chance of it working on the average cruisers boat is very minimal. The toxic gases and smell would be far worse.
Plus some of the engines I work with also now have a full emission control with Urea this takes up to 8000 litres of diesel just to get it up and running on the first run, that same fuel would last these engines for years as they are standby and never run to design load and are on limited hours anyway. So just because it’s regulated by governments it doesn’t make it a great idea.
Without the Urea the first run fuel would be 2000 litres. Most of the 8000 hours is run without knowing how much of the emissions control is working, then there is the added production and movement of fuel - great for oil companies- I mean how do you think the catalyst ever even became the solution? 25% more fuel - yes please.
and you say banned unless essential, well I think every boat would be able to argue its essential, after all at see its a safety issue. End of that argument.

Battery power does not even make sense in a car yet, well it does if you live in a city and I am 100% behind the thoughtful use of batteries. In the city with air pollution it’s a no brainier, however once you want to travel a distance it no longer stacks up, so while you are buying your batteries the next step has already began, sell you electric cars and then replace them all in 5 to 10 years instead of 15- 20 years with a combustion engine, then Batteries will be the new diesel and be considered very dirty and bad for the environment and how could you, and we will move to hydrogen.
The hydrogen already exists, vehicles are already using it, but like the batteries there is no infrastructure for charging.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Guilty as charged. I agree with most of what you say.

Thanks, I wrote it for people like you And also the thread seems to die down without my retorts. I hope it's entertaining to everyone at least.

If you want to keep your diesel and do right: fine but you need to run it on vegetable oil which you can buy almost anywhere and it's easy to do and all of you can easily afford it. If you scroll up, a typical cruiser only needs 50 gallons a year to not really change their habits much. I don't think this cost much or is a lot to ask.

The problem is, you don't want to spend just a little more, or exert the physical effort of sailing more. Mostly you just don't want to exert the mental effort of sailing more which is a sad truth I witness on a daily basis.

Waiting for wind is not the end of boating, it would just be the end of boating as we know it for many. This would be a good thing and it would benefit most of the 7 billion people in the world. It would benefit the boaters too as they would have a higher level of skill as they did in the past. Schedules are self-imposed and not an excuse to do wrong. Having a family is great for you, but not an excuse to harm others. I have several health problems I am not "so lucky" as you may think and some of these problems are a result of polluters.

For those who want someone to tell them what motor to use, what batteries and range it will have: it's up to you to figure this out and share the experience, not to wait around until you are guided on what decisions to make. I try to offer my own experience proving high-aspect ratio large diameter propellers can cut power consumption of typical electric drives such as oceanvolt roughly in half, but a lot of resistance because this fact makes inboards and sail drives impractical. If you want to keep an inboard, go ahead but consider just how much energy is wasted no matter how it's powered. Maybe inboards are useful in harbors, emergencies or as a backup but it's not really sensible to use when more efficient methods are possible.

My computers are all several years old and donated to me. My sails have always been very old and many salvaged from dumpsters. My first boat built in 1973 was recycled, my second boat built in 1973. There is a level of consumption the world can sustain on a long term basis and a level it can't. This same flawed argument of (you use a computer so you are the same as anyone who consumes excessive amounts of fuel) is somehow still repeated but it is an INVALID argument because my level of consumption is a tiny fraction of that and I continue to strive to reduce it and provide information on how to it's possible. Just this year I am cooking only with solar and eliminated the need to burn wood all summer. The people making these arguments are not trying to reduce but are instead failing to justify their over-consumption which is a clear difference.

slavery was immoral to the slaves and unfortunately was never made right even to this day. the climate crisis is an issue for many more than slavery ever was, it reaches everyone and it is economically and morally an even greater issue.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

. .

What is you crowther model and what material is it made from?

[seandepagnier]

In 3 years I have only seen one black cruiser here and his sails were up in and out of the harbor. It's possible to sail in out of of the harbor in most any conditions but it's rare that people do this. The population in this county and state being 25% black, it is astonishing that I only saw one person in 3 years.



After visiting south africa where only 4% of the population is white, but the yacht clubs are exclusively white, and they described blacks as "monkeys" who shouldn't be allowed to ride buses because they "didn't pay for them" and hearing australian cruisers refer to the "abos" as animals, and then hearing from people with boats that cost hundreds of times what mine did talk about how they don't allow black people on board: it is clear that many cruisers are racist. I think far more than the general population in most places. This is a fact I can bear witness to. So it is no surprise they would defend other immoral practices such as diesel power as well.


I have taken black people sailing from one island to the next even one country to the next in several different countries multiple times more than a dozen, and I remember they sure didn't complain having 6 people and 2 dogs on alexandra when the wind died in tropical heat and I had nowhere for them to sit out of the shade and no telling how long it would take: they had patience. These people had no engines of any kind in their lives, they had only at most 100 watt of solar per family (many had none) and they produced all of the food they ate. They told me they didn't like the bigger boats and most foreigners especially australians because they are mostly greedy and selfish people who come and do bad things like pay their chief to drink the blood of the girls in the village: their words not mine. Then I told an australian anchored there about it and he said they don't really know how to grow things very well.