Rudder Packing Gland to Steering Quadrant Leak

[Ocean Girl]

Thanks Stumble. Seabrook called us this afternoon and said they may be able to work on the rudder tomorrow. He said he will call us in the am. If we don't like what we see, we will call Steve, I've already checked out how to get to his yard from here. Money is not an issue with us, it's all about quality work. Steering and rudder are pretty darn important 😀This is pretty straight forward if the frozen bolts don't become too big of an issue. But if it does become complicated I'd like someone with intelligence and good work ethics to be there.
Thanks again for responding to my pm
Cheers
Erika

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

Thanks Stumble. Seabrook called us this afternoon and said they may be able to work on the rudder tomorrow. He said he will call us in the am. If we don't like what we see, we will call Steve, I've already checked out how to get to his yard from here. Money is not an issue with us, it's all about quality work. Steering and rudder are pretty darn important 😀This is pretty straight forward if the frozen bolts don't become too big of an issue. But if it does become complicated I'd like someone with intelligence and good work ethics to be there.
Thanks again for responding to my pm
Cheers
Erika

I'm on my way.... I could use some non issue funding....

AND...

My work ethics are impeccable.... My morals are however questionable...

[a64pilot]

With it hauled and what that costs, I'd be real sure there is nothing else that needs doing while it's on the hard, I don't know, zincs, seacocks, cleaning strainers, whatever.

[Ocean Girl]

The boat will be in the water for the initial attempt to pack the rudder. If they can move the steering quadrant up a few inches then haul out won't be necessary. But I wanted to be at/near haul out in case we did get into something like dropping the rudder, replacing the gaiter south of the packing gland, or God forbid, broke the steering system.

Our rudder, seacocks, cutlass bearings have all been checked when we had the boat haul out last month. This leaked was allowed to go unchecked because we thought it was coming through the propane locker vent( a common psc34 tick). It was always a small leak. But once we left it became an issue. I wonder if the heat from the engine fire is what caused it to become a big leak..?

Seabrook called this morning, said they would be over to the boat this afternoon or Friday depending on the rain. So our departure time is delayed, but that's cruising for ya. Luckily we have good long weather window.
Erika

[a64pilot]

I'll bet they just bust the bolts, or maybe with an impact you'll get lucky and they will come loose, an impact is almost magic, it can "hit" a fastener with enough force to move it, but it's such a short "hit" it won't break it, maybe. Most do have enough torque to wring off small stuff like that.
I'm betting they will be able to do it in the water, and your engine fire had nothing to do with it failing, just age got to the packing is all I think, may well be original.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'll bet they just bust the bolts, or maybe with an impact you'll get lucky and they will come loose, an impact is almost magic, it can "hit" a fastener with enough force to move it, but it's such a short "hit" it won't break it, maybe. Most do have enough torque to wring off small stuff like that.
I'm betting they will be able to do it in the water, and your engine fire had nothing to do with it failing, just age got to the packing is all I think, may well be original.

Yep... a good air impact wrench will break those all off in a couple minutes. The problem is... what if the non- thru ones break and leave the rest in the aluminum?
We'll know soon I guess!!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Yep... a good air impact wrench will break those all off in a couple minutes. The problem is... what if the non- thru ones break and leave the rest in the aluminum?
We'll know soon I guess!!

This is why heat and a less powerful impact wrench are often a better solution.

[Warby12]

A question on heat which may sound silly

Heat causes the item heated to expand. So if you heated the bolts they would become bigger in the hole and therefore tighter?
If you heated the quadrant, the quandrant would expand making it "bigger" would that not make the holes for the bolts smaller and therefore tighter?

I know I'm wrong and that heat does work but I've always wondered about which bit to heat.

[a64pilot]

Usually you heat the whole thing and due to different thermal expansion rates the heat causes the corrosion or whatever to break free. Try as you might, it's just not possible to heat just the bolt, aluminum absorbs and transfers heat rather well, I think better than steel

All my impacts are adjustable as to how much force is applied. I've never used the electric that came with my drill/driver set, but I assume it's not an on or off thing either

Of course I don't know why, but actually tightening and then loosening a fastener will sometimes make it break free.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Warby12

A question on heat which may sound silly

Heat causes the item heated to expand. So if you heated the bolts they would become bigger in the hole and therefore tighter?
If you heated the quadrant, the quandrant would expand making it "bigger" would that not make the holes for the bolts smaller and therefore tighter?

I know I'm wrong and that heat does work but I've always wondered about which bit to heat.

It is confusing... and quite an art. I believe heating the housing will actually expand the holes. Likely because the expansion of the whole assembly is greater than the meat around the hole..?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

All my impacts are adjustable as to how much force is applied. I've never used the electric that came with my drill/driver set, but I assume it's not an on or off thing either

Of course I don't know why, but actually tightening and then loosening a fastener will sometimes make it break free.

The freebie impact driver that came with my cordless drill is variable.

Applying a tightening force before loosening is always step one for me! Amazing how well, and often, this works.

From the pictures, that quadrant doesn't look very bad at all. Frankly, it looks so good that I thought there would be no problem with the bolts. Ours look worse, and I don't have a problem getting them apart.

I'm betting that it is simply a leverage/space issue and those bolts are going to spin right out with an impact driver. I think this will be an easy job with no drama.

Hope I'm right!

Mark

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Warby12

A question on heat which may sound silly

Heat causes the item heated to expand. So if you heated the bolts they would become bigger in the hole and therefore tighter?
If you heated the quadrant, the quandrant would expand making it "bigger" would that not make the holes for the bolts smaller and therefore tighter?

I know I'm wrong and that heat does work but I've always wondered about which bit to heat.

G'Day Warby,

There are two factors involved:

First, when you heat any solid object with a hole in it, the diameter of the hole increases from the thermal expansion, not decreases. Didn't you do an experiment in about fourth grade science where you heated a brass ring and the ball that sat upon it fell through? It may not be intuitive, but it is so!

Second, in this case, the thermal expansion coefficient of Aluminium is significantly greater than that of s/s, and that further increases the clearance as the temperature rises.

As to which to heat... if it was possible to heat the Aluminium quadrant without heating the bolt the effect would be maximized, but that is difficult to do in most cases, so one does the best one can with the torch!

Cheers,

Jim

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

Luckily we have good long weather window.
Erika

Best wishes getting your problem solved quickly, and get down to the keys and Bahamas where it's warmer.

Ralph

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

.......
First, when you heat any solid object with a hole in it, the diameter of the hole increases from the thermal expansion, not decreases. Didn't you do an experiment in about fourth grade science where you heated a brass ring and the ball that sat upon it fell through? It may not be intuitive, but it is so!

Think of it this way.
Heat a straight length of metal - it gets longer, right - intuitive!
Now blend this now longer length of metal into a circle; of course the diameter of the circle must be bigger than that of the cold length (bigger circumference = bigger diameter) - intuitive, right!

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

As to which to heat... if it was possible to heat the Aluminium quadrant without heating the bolt the effect would be maximized, but that is difficult to do in most cases, so one does the best one can with the torch!

Cheers,

Jim

Yep, heat it all and then spray some freezer spray onto the bolt head or whatever bit you want smaller.

Heat (& cold) is always your friend when metal bits are frozen together

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Usually you heat the whole thing and due to different thermal expansion rates the heat causes the corrosion or whatever to break free. Try as you might, it's just not possible to heat just the bolt, aluminum absorbs and transfers heat rather well, I think better than steel

You think right!
A rule of thumb; if a metal conducts electricity well, it conducts heat well.
Thus copper is great at heat conduction, aluminium is pretty good, steel is average and stainless steel is below average.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Of course I don't know why, but actually tightening and then loosening a fastener will sometimes make it break free.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I don't know why either but I always thought it had something to do with how the thread surfaces are tensioned against each other. Presumably when the bolt is torqued up, one side of the respective thread surface is different to the other side. Thus when tightening the stuck bolt, these stresses are reversed a tiny bit. Of course this might be be pure BS