Rudder nightmare at sea

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Did you ever test it out in sea conditions. I mean with some 3 - 6 ft. waves?

Ah, sorry, you answered before I asked.

I have read accounts and seen pictures of this type of jury rig. So if they could do it I figured we could do it if we had to. At least we would have a shot at it. One karma point for trying to be prepared in advance??

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

We had u-bolts and a one piece plywood emergency hatch board drilled and fitted to the spinnaker pole for use as an emergency rudder. It was a fairly sturdy set-up.

The one piece hatch board was fabbed and put onboard in case we lost or broke one of the good hatch boards in heavy weather. It also doubled as a nice work surface and was drilled to hold the machine vice when needed.

I think it would be somewhat easy to lose a hatch board in heavy weather. Having a backup would keep the amount of salt water in the cabin at a minimum.

Today this note is from the desk chair and not the armchair. Oh and we had this engineered before we left on our two year voyage.

Boat make & size?
Where did your 2 years take you?
How far did you sail with the emergency rudder after losing yours? Was it at least 72metres (oops, NM I meant to say)? If so, can we have the drawings/plans, or is it patented now?

[DeepFrz]

Just asking because there was a commercial emergency rudder system that I felt could never be fitted except in a very calm sea. I like the cassette type emergency rudder where the cassette assembly is attached first and then the rudder dropped into the cassette. It allows the rudder to be fitted in less than ideal conditions.

[LakeSuperior]

Bluewater, perhaps the take-away lesson from your mishap is that going offshore requires careful planning to be prepared for system failures particularly if one is 100's of miles from assistance.

This necessarily means having back-up rudder plan and heavy weather drogues. BTW, these two specific items are discussed in detail in every offshore sailing book ever written. Having one or the other would have probably saved you at least a couple 1000 bucks.

Just an observation independent of your mishap but it seem you are in the category of a sailor that hasn't sat down and done his homework before heading offshore. BTW, this comment was the first thing that came to mind when I read your first post. I just needed to incentive to put it on the table. Most other experienced sailors are thinking the same.

[Cheechako]

So... did I miss this?.... where did this rudder fail? right at the top of the rudder blade where it is in open water or up inside the tube?
The whole thing just seems wierd... I mean there are plenty of old Taiwan built cruising boats around that were built in the 80's with no failres yet. I would imagine the shafts are some type of 304-ish SS.... am I missing something....? Are we overlooking something...?

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

Bluewater, perhaps the take-away lesson from your mishap is that going offshore requires careful planning to be prepared for system failures particularly if one is 100's of miles from assistance.

This necessarily means having back-up rudder plan and heavy weather drogues. BTW, these two specific items are discussed in detail in every offshore sailing book ever written. Having one or the other would have probably saved you at least a couple 1000 bucks.

Just an observation independent of your mishap but it seem you are in the category of a sailor that hasn't sat down and done his homework before heading offshore. BTW, this comment was the first thing that came to mind when I read your first post. I just needed to incentive to put it on the table. Most other experienced sailors are thinking the same.

Thanks, next time before I set out I will drag a spare Beneteau Oceanis 50 as a drogue and perhaps, while I do that I will make sure I have a spare Hurricane Hole on board as well. Anyway, I now need to get down to the more serious business of sorting things.

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

So... did I miss this?.... where did this rudder fail? right at the top of the rudder blade where it is in open water or up inside the tube?
The whole thing just seems wierd... I mean there are plenty of old Taiwan built cruising boats around that were built in the 80's with no failres yet. I would imagine the shafts are some type of 304-ish SS.... am I missing something....? Are we overlooking something...?

A fair question. It failed right about an inch or two as it exits into the water. It is a composite/fibreglass shaft, not SS. It does puzzle many when this sort of thing happens, as it really is something completely unexpected and out of the ordinary. As I said before, I will make sure I post about anything that we find once we get to the point of removal/replacement, which is hopefully sooner rather than later.

[Cheechako]

OK, thanks, So it was confirmed to be composite..... I see. I would consider stainless then. I just think engineers are still learning what the real limits of composites are in that type of use are. Just too many publisized failures of things that were obviously intensely engineered... but based on whose data? the composite sellers? JMHO.

[Randy]

I think part of the problem is when Carbon fiber comes into play too often the concept of light weight comes along with it . And with composites there is an element of lack of quality control in manufacturing it seems.

[bfloyd4445]

Originally Posted by Bluewaters2812

Thanks, next time before I set out I will drag a spare Beneteau Oceanis 50 as a drogue and perhaps, while I do that I will make sure I have a spare Hurricane Hole on board as well. Anyway, I now need to get down to the more serious business of sorting things.

now your talking!!.........made me laugh good point. At some point one has to stop loading gear parts for things that may happen or the boat will sink at the dock. When I read your original post I knew exactly what happened. I've seen other stainless shafts break for seemingly no reason. Thinking of the incident on that kind of a boat I can imagine how difficult it would be to rig up a rudder. Don't let these arm chair...opps..computer chair critics get you down they are just trying to learn from your experience.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Randy

I think part of the problem is when Carbon fiber comes into play too often the concept of light weight comes along with it . And with composites there is an element of lack of quality control in manufacturing it seems.

I suspect you've hit the nail on the head.... the real world is different than the theoretical... some engineers understand this and some dont really. Specifying how something is to be manufactured and understanding the Mfg limitations are two different things for sure. I imagine as the empirical data base grows, the design's robust-ness will too....

[leftbrainstuff]

Thanks for the detailed posts. My wife and I have you in our thoughts. Ignore the bashers and armchair posts.

BTW I am an engineer with plenty of materials knowledge in both metal and composites. I 'm also a mechanic, airframe welder and toolmaker by trade with over 70,000 hours on the job.

If you need a third opinion or want clarification get in touch. I understand how tough it is to resolve these issues in unfamiliar surroundings.

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Thanks for the detailed posts. My wife and I have you in our thoughts. Ignore the bashers and armchair posts.

BTW I am an engineer with plenty of materials knowledge in both metal and composites. I 'm also a mechanic, airframe welder and toolmaker by trade with over 70,000 hours on the job.

If you need a third opinion or want clarification get in touch. I understand how tough it is to resolve these issues in unfamiliar surroundings.

A very kind post, thank you and much appreciated. I had a lengthy conversation with a truly knowledgeable professional in Melbourne, Florida a couple of hours ago. He was so kind and gave us his time and shared expertise on building an emergency rudder because we are currently in a protected mooring where we can attempt this. I wish this had happened to us off the USA coast because there are so many opportunities to resolve this problem relatively quickly (and helpful people with expertise that can assist).

We are heartened by the many people who truly are contributing morally and with information. The financial side just seems to wither into the background when you have such good people providing this sort of support.

I am going to try and drop the remaining shaft whilst we are in the water. I am not in deep water so if it falls to the bottom I should be able to retrieve it. To be honest, I think it might naturally be buoyant and float to the surface. At least then I have a "template" from which I can see if a temporary steel shaft can be "manufactured". The rudder that we build around that would only need to last a couple of weeks until we can get to somewhere where there is better infrastructural support and expertise.

I will definitely come back to you if I feel it needs someone more technically minded such as yourself (probably will be the case). Thank you so much for your positive input.

[Bluewaters2812]

Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff

Thanks for the detailed posts. My wife and I have you in our thoughts. Ignore the bashers and armchair posts.

BTW I am an engineer with plenty of materials knowledge in both metal and composites. I 'm also a mechanic, airframe welder and toolmaker by trade with over 70,000 hours on the job.

If you need a third opinion or want clarification get in touch. I understand how tough it is to resolve these issues in unfamiliar surroundings.

Originally Posted by Cheechako

OK, thanks, So it was confirmed to be composite..... I see. I would consider stainless then. I just think engineers are still learning what the real limits of composites are in that type of use are. Just too many publisized failures of things that were obviously intensely engineered... but based on whose data? the composite sellers? JMHO.

I believe you may well be right there.

[Bluewaters2812]

Friday night ... having a drink on board with my lovely wife now.