Replacing bottlescrews with lanyards

[edlithgow]

Looking for information on replacing bottlescrews with lanyards. Search engines mostly find ship model and other largely irrelevant applications.


I found a few Youtube video’s using Dyneema, etc, mostly with all-Dyneema etc rigs, but, as is normal with Youtube videos, these are fact-light, and I would prefer to use polyester unless its essential to use Dyneema etc.


Examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfhNIGwtLlw

How to Tension Lanyards on Traditional Standing Rigging


Bit lacking in detail, and not really traditional, since its all synthetic using Vectran, but it does apparently show lanyards just replacing the bottle screws, without (neo)deadeyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ptuywtXM_E

Synthetic Standing Rigging: How to Tension Your Stays with the Shroud Frapping Knot


They actually tension the stay lanyards with tandem winches, and the “Shroud Frapping Knot” is a seizing, but it does show more detail of apparently unusually long but few turn (possibly cos its spectra) lanyards in use.


Closest to a specification reference for this I’ve found so far is (rather well hidden) here:-


https://classic-marine.co.uk/shrouded-in-mystery/


"Other options? Well why not set up your stays using lanyards or lashings? They are very light, very cheap, don’t corrode, but can chafe. The table shows how many turns you need of a particular rope size to match the strength of a wire, and it is surprisingly few. Now I know that such an arrangement is not as stiff as a rigging screw, but for most rigs and uses, that simply does not matter. Rather like looping the stays over a mast, it is an option often neglected in the name of modernity."


The table of lanyard turns for different lanyard diameters against wire diam seems puzzlingly incomplete, since it only goes up to 5 mm wire/lanyard size, and it does not specify the material used for the lanyards, (or the wire, though that is probably less critical)


Any better source known?

[psk125]

People tend to use Dyneema because it's stronger for the same diameter and stretches less than polyester. Does Brian Toss's Rigger's Apprentice have a section on this? That would probably be quite definitive.

[edlithgow]

Originally Posted by psk125

People tend to use Dyneema because it's stronger for the same diameter and stretches less than polyester. Does Brian Toss's Rigger's Apprentice have a section on this? That would probably be quite definitive.

Dont have it, though I could probably get a copy when I get back to the UK.

[Franziska]

I'd give this a good thought before you do it.


I'm aware of a few boats (including us) with DIY Dyneema rigging which went back to bottle screws, but kept the Dyneema rigging.


Main reason for us was that we felt it's much less hassle to get proper tension on the rigging.


The bottlescrews are on deck, so the effect of the weight saved by getting rid of them is less important than if they were aloft.

[Tupaia]

We also have Dyneema rigging with conventional bottle screws. It can be done with lashing but as Franziska says getting the tension right and the balance port and starboard is very difficult and time consuming.


Precourt used to make lashing terminals, think they went out of business, but Colligo make some very nice terminal ends that mean that you can use a simple loop splice instead of having to use an oversized thimble.


https://www.sail-world.com/photos/co...yysw396520.jpg

[edlithgow]

Thanks. I'll probably only try it if the (galvanized) bottle screws show faults when I get a close look at them back in the UK, which they might because they have been in contact with stainless steel for an unknown but probably long period.


Its quite likely though that aluminium component damage (i.e the mast) will take priority. There are probable sources of corrosive flue gases in the area (iron foundry, oil refinery, and the last coal fired power station in Scotland, now closed down) and I noticed that the window frames are quite badly eroded at the drain points


Re special fittings, might go for something like this, (these "deadeyes" arent really, but seem like they should work) but I'll probably avoid doing that unless I have to.


https://www.omick.net/adventure/sail...gging.html.bak

[Tupaia]

Remember that if you are using Dyneema it needs quite a large radius eye that needs support either from the fitting (Precourt/Colligo) or a large thimble, it doesn't take kindly to tight radius, for example round a pin.


If your fittings are galvanised have you considered galvanised wire it is much cheaper more durable than SS.

[Mexican Hat]

My Wharram rigging plan called for six loops of 6mm polyester lashings, using a hard eye one one side and a shackle on the other. Bear in mind it's a low stress rig with small sails. (I have dyneema stays FWIW).

I found it difficult to get the appropriate tension and ended up adding bottle screws to the system. I do the basic setting with the lashings and then tighten from there with the screws. The problem is not just getting full tension, but unless you have large fittings the lines tend to interfere with each other, leaving some strands looser than others.

The problem can be solved with the fittings made by Colligo, and perhaps others, but they are quite expensive. Using dyneema for the lashings would probably remove the binding problem as its pretty slippery stuff, and of course can be smaller. If you do it, its good practice to lock off the line on the last lashing so the strands can equalize.

There are threads on CF of folks making their own eyes with separate strand holes like Collogo's, which are basically like the wooden eyes used for hundreds of years.

[Benz]

Contraty to the nay-sayers, it is entirely possible to get proper tension even on wire rigs with a lanyard.
I just set up the dyneema shrouds for an almost-100-foot schooner with Colligo dedeyes and dyneema lanyards. The key is to use a come-along or handy billy in line with the direction of load, "twang" the legs from the deadend toward the fall as you go to even out the tension, and then rack all the legs together with a Spanish-windlassed loop and a stout rod to hold the tension until you can hitch off the fall.
Once the fall is hitched, the racking is removed so that all the legs can take an even strain.
This is done on high-end catamarans, low-end schooners, tall ships with polyester lanyards, wooden deadeyes, and galvanized wire: it works. People who say it doesn't simply don't know.

[edlithgow]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

Remember that if you are using Dyneema it needs quite a large radius eye that needs support either from the fitting (Precourt/Colligo) or a large thimble, it doesn't take kindly to tight radius, for example round a pin.


If your fittings are galvanised have you considered galvanised wire it is much cheaper more durable than SS.

If/when I replace the wire I intend using galvanized, though some mixed metal will remain since the chainplates are SS.


If Dyneema is intolerant of tight radii that might be a good reason not to use it, which I dont especially want to do anyway if polyester will do the job,


Seems like it should be possible to add a roller to a pin/bolt, or go for a full deadeye if necessary.

[edlithgow]

Originally Posted by Benz

Contraty to the nay-sayers, it is entirely possible to get proper tension even on wire rigs with a lanyard.
I just set up the dyneema shrouds for an almost-100-foot schooner with Colligo dedeyes and dyneema lanyards. The key is to use a come-along or handy billy in line with the direction of load, "twang" the legs from the deadend toward the fall as you go to even out the tension, and then rack all the legs together with a Spanish-windlassed loop and a stout rod to hold the tension until you can hitch off the fall.
Once the fall is hitched, the racking is removed so that all the legs can take an even strain.
This is done on high-end catamarans, low-end schooners, tall ships with polyester lanyards, wooden deadeyes, and galvanized wire: it works. People who say it doesn't simply don't know.

That would seem to imply that the seizing used on the couple of video's above is sub-optimal, since it would prevent equalisation.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Benz

Contraty to the nay-sayers, it is entirely possible to get proper tension even on wire rigs with a lanyard.
I just set up the dyneema shrouds for an almost-100-foot schooner with Colligo dedeyes and dyneema lanyards. The key is to use a come-along or handy billy in line with the direction of load, "twang" the legs from the deadend toward the fall as you go to even out the tension, and then rack all the legs together with a Spanish-windlassed loop and a stout rod to hold the tension until you can hitch off the fall.
Once the fall is hitched, the racking is removed so that all the legs can take an even strain.
This is done on high-end catamarans, low-end schooners, tall ships with polyester lanyards, wooden deadeyes, and galvanized wire: it works. People who say it doesn't simply don't know.

I think the nay sayers don't say it's not possible to get proper tension, it's more about the ease of achieving it.

Few more turns in the bottlescrew and the job is done. For us that's far more efficient than fiddling with lanyards.

Been there done that.

[Bowdrie]

For the OP, what kind of boat do you have?
What do you hope to gain by replacing turnbuckles with lanyards?
As was alluded to by Benz, the use of lanyards basically fall at opposite ends of the spectrum, either a high-tech boat where every ounce of weight is looked upon with suspicion, or to replicate something with a tree for a mast.
There were reasons that Nat Herreshoff took his design for a turnbuckle to the Merriman brothers well over a 100 years ago.

[edlithgow]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

For the OP, what kind of boat do you have?
What do you hope to gain by replacing turnbuckles with lanyards?
As was alluded to by Benz, the use of lanyards basically fall at opposite ends of the spectrum, either a high-tech boat where every ounce of weight is looked upon with suspicion, or to replicate something with a tree for a mast.
There were reasons that Nat Herreshoff took his design for a turnbuckle to the Merriman brothers well over a 100 years ago.

I hope to achieve my mast not falling down in the most cheapskate way possible, plus simplicity, plus satisfy my curiosity as to whether it works.


The cheapskate bit probably contraindicates using dyneema, though I havnt yet done a price comparison with replacing the bottlescrews. I'll leave that until I'm back in the UK.


The boat is a Trident 24 with an aluminium mast and mixed SS/galvanized rigging, so reducing and isolating the mixed metals would be another objective.


Transgressing any "opposite ends of the spectrum" rules would, I suppose, be a bonus.

[edlithgow]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

We also have Dyneema rigging with conventional bottle screws. It can be done with lashing but as Franziska says getting the tension right and the balance port and starboard is very difficult and time consuming.


Precourt used to make lashing terminals, think they went out of business, but Colligo make some very nice terminal ends that mean that you can use a simple loop splice instead of having to use an oversized thimble.


https://www.sail-world.com/photos/co...yysw396520.jpg

The picture looks like a terminal for synthetic rigging, which I'm not currently intending to install.


They have some images of deadeye pairs set up with lanyards, also with synthetic rigging, but I believe they also do them suitable for wire rigging, which would be my choice if money was no object.,


But money is an object, so I'll either be using a standard thimble, some kind of DIY deadeye/deadeye substitute, or not doing it.


If I dont implement it as a permanent installation it might still be of interest to try it out as a potential emergency lash up repair