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Old 15-02-2021, 08:53   #31
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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... Better still buy a 30ft yacht for cash and live within ones means...
...I can see that we both were born in a different century...(today the idea seems to be: "buy the biggest boat that you possibly can get a loan for!")
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Old 15-02-2021, 09:34   #32
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

So, let me get this right...

A guy who has never sailed buys a boat
He puts it in some charter service to help him pay for it
Within a year or so he runs aground so hard the boat has significant damage
He makes a video and posts it on youtube

And now some people think he is an expert in boat construction and sailing?

LMAO!!!

At least he seems to be learning....the hard (and very expensive) way.
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Old 15-02-2021, 11:22   #33
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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Originally Posted by vpbarkley View Post
In both "Sailing Aurora" and "Expedition Evans" the owners choose a very labor intensive solution to reattach the grid to the hull using fiberglass.

It is true that a fiberglass connection is stronger than the adhesive used during original assembly. So it follows that the boat as modified is stronger than it was originally.

But is this the correct conclusion? One also assumes that the manufacturers chose an inferior method of construction to reduce cost.

In each instance the boat endured a hard grounding. In each case the keel remained attached and the boat did not sink.

Instead the adhesive failed. When the adhesive failed it increased the flexibility of the structure to absorb the grounding. The adhesive acted as a fuse.

If the hull and grid were strongly attached there is a possibility that the failure could have been more severe. The effect would be increased rigidity, not necessarily positive.

If you believe that boats that are assembled with adhesive are demonstrably durable in normal use, then a repair using original materials is completely reasonable.

Removing the old adhesive and replacing it with new would have been enormously less involved. And, the boat would have been restored to original.

Happy Valentine's Day and smooth sailing.

Very good info to point out Mr. VPBarkley, like crumple zones. I would further validate your claims by the observation that the grid in both Evan's Beneteau and the Hanse also cracked and failed prior to the failure of the bonding agent. So the strength of the adhesive bond is commensurate with that of the strength of the grid-beam structure. If the adhesive bond was too weak and brittle, then there would not have been any cracks/failure of the grid beams.



These boats are highly engineered and I do think the Evan's repair is certainly stronger than the original hull design. It is 100% correct to state that if they were grounded in the same manner again, the loads on surrounding structure, such as the keel bolts, will be higher with the added strength of hull & grid. So next time the keel bolts may break off!?.. Though I think Evan's is very safe to sail that boat.



It's totally Ridiculous to hear people claim Hanse is negligent! The boat hit solid rock at 5+ knots and didn't sink. One should expect some damage in that kind of 'crash', which subjects the boat to much higher loads than any operational situation.
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Old 15-02-2021, 14:33   #34
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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It's totally Ridiculous to hear people claim Hanse is negligent! The boat hit solid rock at 5+ knots and didn't sink. One should expect some damage in that kind of 'crash', which subjects the boat to much higher loads than any operational situation.
"It didn't sink" is a pretty low bar. That might have been a sleeping whale it dinged in the middle of the Atlantic with another 1500nm to go and a building force 9 forecast.

Modern high aspect fin keels attached to the flat bottoms of thinly skinned boats are problems just waiting to happen.

If one must have a fin keel then, at the very least, buy from a higher quality builder who has taken into account such potential mishaps and has engineered and built their hulls to better withstand it.
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Old 15-02-2021, 14:41   #35
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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"It didn't sink" is a pretty low bar. That might have been a sleeping whale it dinged in the middle of the Atlantic with another 1500nm to go and a building force 9 forecast.

Modern high aspect fin keels attached to the flat bottoms of thinly skinned boats are problems just waiting to happen.

If one must have a fin keel then, at the very least, buy from a higher quality builder who has taken into account such potential mishaps and has engineered and built their hulls to better withstand it.
I agree. I hit HARD 3 times in my Passport 47. (Damn 6'-6" draft!) I'm talking 'dead stop hard' from 5 knots and body flailing into the cockpit a couple of those times; Result? No damage, scraped keel.
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Old 15-02-2021, 17:02   #36
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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"It didn't sink" is a pretty low bar. That might have been a sleeping whale it dinged in the middle of the Atlantic with another 1500nm to go and a building force 9 forecast.

Modern high aspect fin keels attached to the flat bottoms of thinly skinned boats are problems just waiting to happen.

If one must have a fin keel then, at the very least, buy from a higher quality builder who has taken into account such potential mishaps and has engineered and built their hulls to better withstand it.

Well, I don't believe it took on any water either... but I'm not sure and that's not the point.

Boats are designed for different purposes. Do you think your 40ft full keel Island Packet is going to be faster than a Farr 40 beer can racing?... No. the Hanse is a coastal cruiser that's built medium-light for several good reasons. Speed and cost are 2 reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that!... assuming they are honest about the boat's intended purpose.

My point (ignored) was that it is ridiculous to say Hanse is negligent because there was some structural damage from hitting a rock. that's like saying my Miata blew it's tranny when I was towing my 2 ton boat and Mazda is negligent. Not all boats should be able to withstand such abuse as hitting a rock. A TP52 hitting a rock at 80% hull speed may actually sink! Oh and look at American Magic, engineered to the hilt! Basically sank from a knock down.
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Old 15-02-2021, 17:28   #37
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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Hanse is a coastal cruiser
And where do you find rocks?
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Old 15-02-2021, 17:44   #38
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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And where do you find rocks?
]you are not reading the context, the point of the statement was in regards to Hanse negligence. Not all boats are designed, nor should be design to withstand a dead blow with a rock at 5knts.


Do you think the heavy cars in the 50's were better because a 10mph run into a wall would do nothing more than dent the bumper, while today's cars an air bag would deeply and the car unlikely to be safely driven?... That answer Doesn't matter, either way, the manufacture is not negligent. That was the point.
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Old 15-02-2021, 17:53   #39
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

I read context just fine.

Its a COASTAL cruiser.

Rocks are part of the coat.

Now if it was marketed as a passage maker then you don't find many rocks mid ocean. So those boats sometimes have very deep keels, like 7’ or more.

You don’t see deep draft on coastal cruisers because there are ROCKS.

Enough.
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Old 15-02-2021, 18:16   #40
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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I read context just fine.

Its a COASTAL cruiser.

Rocks are part of the coat.

Now if it was marketed as a passage maker then you don't find many rocks mid ocean. So those boats sometimes have very deep keels, like 7’ or more.

You don’t see deep draft on coastal cruisers because there are ROCKS.

Enough.
there are plenty of coastal boats that have deep keels, typical of higher performance... that's not relevant to my point.

Coastal boats are typically less stout than ocean going passage makers, some not even able to survive an accident like this. That's the point you seem to miss. It was regarding the false claim of negligence and the defamation of a big brand name by another member on this thread (arguably illegal speech). Surely your not claiming that all boats sailing around coastal rocks should be able to hit them at 5knts and sail away without significant damage. That is ridiculous! as I said before.
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Old 15-02-2021, 18:25   #41
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

Not ridiculous at all.

Why do cars have 5 mph bumpers?

Not cause they do any good on the freeway, but in the parking lot.
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Old 15-02-2021, 18:54   #42
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

This conversation points out, once again, that all boats are compromises. Sure, it would be possible to design and build every boat to withstand a 5kt collision with a rock and emerge unscathed. But then, how many of us would accept the performance hit such construction might entail, or even be able to afford it? Maybe we would just acknowledge that we have to be more careful about going around hitting rocks.
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Old 15-02-2021, 19:29   #43
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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Not ridiculous at all.

Why do cars have 5 mph bumpers?

Not cause they do any good on the freeway, but in the parking lot.

"not ridiculous at all" haha.. let me quote what you are saying is not ridiculous "that all boats sailing around coastal rocks should be able to hit them at 5knts and sail away without significant damage.".. sorry that's is ridiculous.

What you are saying, in essence, is that we need an impact test regulation on boats, which the vast majority of boats today would fail (obviously the Evan's Benetuea 49 and Hanse discussed herein fail.. and likely all performance boats like T52, farr 40, Megles 32, etc.). And if your boat does not pass the 'hit a rock test' then you are a negligent manufacturer, criminally liable!! HaHahah ... Sorry Hpeer, I stand by my statement that it is ridiculous to expect to hit a rock and have no damage in "all" boats...
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Old 15-02-2021, 20:53   #44
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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...It's totally Ridiculous to hear people claim Hanse is negligent! The boat hit solid rock at 5+ knots and didn't sink. One should expect some damage in that kind of 'crash', which subjects the boat to much higher loads than any operational situation.
What's "totally Ridiculous" is to deny something that is so patently obvious, that is if one knows anything at all about composite construction.

Hanse built the boat. The shortcomings in the quality control are evident in the gaps between the grid and the hull that are filled with hardened bonding agent, the root cause of the at-best-premature failure. Hence not only was Hanse negligent, but are also both culpable and liable.

Equally "totally Ridiculous" is the claim that the vessel is "...a coastal cruiser that's built medium-light for several good reasons. Speed and cost are 2 reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that!... assuming they are honest about the boat's intended purpose."

From page 2 of their disgustingly 'slick' brochure, "Feel at home on the high seas". Google 'high seas' definfition, " the open ocean, especially that not within any country's jurisdiction."

http://hanseyachts.hr/media/filer_pu...o_cc_web96.pdf

(since a couple of the several other aspects of this "tR" claim have already been addressed there's no real need to go on)

Leaving aside the also "totally Ridiculous" ideas that even "just a coastal cruiser" should be given a pass because that's what 'someone' incorrectly thinks it is, or that 'their' incomprehension of the fact that what's being discussed, as clearly stated ("Given the construction shown in the video of that particular (new) vessel, I'd guess that with enough normal heavy usage that sooner or later there would have been delamination issues even without a 'heavy' grounding."), is the shoddy quality control of one particular individual boat.

(Though the trans-manufacturer record of such construction techniques leaves little doubt about the shortcomings of that technique...)


And so on.


Couple other points would be interesting to know, like

"...the grid in both Evan's Beneteau and the Hanse also cracked and failed prior to the failure of the bonding agent..."

(You know this how?)

and

Do you own stock in Hanse?

but I fear the responses will be "totally Ridiculous"...
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Old 16-02-2021, 06:37   #45
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Re: Repairing hull damage on a Hanse.

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Originally Posted by zstine View Post

Boats are designed for different purposes. Do you think your 40ft full keel Island Packet is going to be faster than a Farr 40 beer can racing?... No. the Hanse is a coastal cruiser that's built medium-light for several good reasons. Speed and cost are 2 reasons. And there's nothing wrong with that!... assuming they are honest about the boat's intended purpose.
From the info I could gather, it seems that the Hanse 375 ( and presumably those larger than that) have a European CE rating "A". I would presume the same goes for the Bendy toys and other similarly mass produced European boats. CE rating "A" is open ocean, so not a coastal cruiser as you claim.

Category A – Ocean: covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.

And, yes, I do think that all keel boats whether designed for coastal cruising or ocean voyaging should be able to withstand a hard grounding or collision with the keel at about 5 knots without having to undergo such extensive repairs.

Arguably, such robust build quality is even more important for boats intended for coastal cruising and the charter trade as the experience level of the operator is generally less and the potential for grounding considerably more.
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