Removing winch from mast

[roverhi]

Cobalt drills are what you need to drill Stainless. Use heavy pressure on the drill, cutting oil and slow drill speed. SS is hard to drill because it work hardens when subjected too high a drill speed, not enough pressure on the bit and operator wobble. Go slow, go hard, with oil.

Assume there is an aluminum plate under the winch. That is the problem as that makes for a lot of surface area of the fastener to be locked in place by corrosion. You might try the jumper cable trick to get heat to the fastener. Worked on all the fasteners on my fifty year old mast except, you guessed it, removing the reel halyard winch.

Hook jumper cables up to the battery as you normally would. On the other end put a bolt (1/4" x 2" bolt works fine) in the postive lead clamp of the jumper cable. Clamp the negative lead as close to the stuck fastener as possible. Touch the bolt in the positive lead clamp to the head of the fastener. You set up what is essentially an arc welder. Will heat the fastener to cherry red if left in contact long enough. It also gets the fastener way hotter than you can with a MAPP torch. It works really well as it only heat up the area of the fastener while not burning up the surrounding country side like you do with a torch. It is really the only way to get serious heat to a fastener if there is painted surfaces or plastics close by. Quench the heated fastener with penetrating oil. Try to remove the fastener with an impact driver, either manual or power. Repeat the process till you break the fastener loose. Other than using the trick to remove all the fasteners on a 44 year old mast, used it to get corrosion welded bolts out that passed through substantial aluminum castings on my self steering vane.

Having said the above, the hardest fastener to remove is not one that is threaded into aluminum but one that simply passes through an aluminum casting like cleats, etc. Getting the bolts out of the self steering casting took something north of 25 iterations, heating with the jumper cable and quenching with penetrating oil over many days. A good idea to coat the shaft not just the threads of any fastener in aluminum cleats or castings with Lanocote, TefGel, or other long lasting lubricant.

[Jim Cate]

Just a thought: if you go the electric impact wrench route and it works, you might want to remove the other winch whilst you have the tool in hand. Service it too, and return to the mast with lubricated/anti-seized fasteners. You will be glad you did at some future time!

Jim

[Mike Burch]

Just a note on drilling stainless in general:
You need:
1. Lots of pressure,
2. Lots of slow,
3. Lots of cutting oil, and
4. Lots of sharp.
Do not allow the drill bit to rub! The stainless will work-harden in the blink of an eye, and you'll have hell's delight getting the drill to bite again.
Stainless is only stainless because the chromium in it forms a thin hard layer of transparent chromium oxide on the surface, so the otherwise ordinary steel beneath it does not rust. When drilling, you must get and keep the cutting edge of the drill below that layer.

[thunderhoof]

As SV_Grace states I have not seen a winch that must be removed from its mounting surface for maintenance. Are you having trouble with the central shaft that the handle drives? If so I would leave it on the mast, try several doses of your corrosion buster of choice and then, after the buster has dried/ been wiped off use a torch to heat the outside of the shaft while some one applies a lot of force to a winch handle inserted in the winch. If you have an old rugged handle, try a little extra encouragement with a hand sledge. Make sure you have removed any split rings or pawls on the assembly.

[Siberian Sea]

You need to use an electric impact wrench. Some large drills have a hammer setting that works just like an impact wrench but of course the dedicated electric wrench is best. The small hand impact wrench you strike with a hammer are a joke compared to the electric ones. You just alternate between loosen and tighten back and fourth and there is a very very high probability it shall remove the machine screws or bolts without twisting them off. You can get a cheap one from Wal Mart or a better but used one from a pawn shop. Supper nice to have around the boat

[SofaKingFishy]

I do this for a living. If they don’t budge with an impact driver and deep creep, then heat them up with MAPP gas and persist. If the heads snap off (likely, drill the holes out and insert HeliCoil threads. If your holes are oval used or irregular (very likely) you’ll need to have them filled by a shop & retapped.

[SofaKingFishy]

Originally Posted by thunderhoof

As SV_Grace states I have not seen a winch that must be removed from its mounting surface for maintenance. Are you having trouble with the central shaft that the handle drives? If so I would leave it on the mast, try several doses of your corrosion buster of choice and then, after the buster has dried/ been wiped off use a torch to heat the outside of the shaft while some one applies a lot of force to a winch handle inserted in the winch. If you have an old rugged handle, try a little extra encouragement with a hand sledge. Make sure you have removed any split rings or pawls on the assembly.

Plenty do. Barient is notorious for this.

[Bowdrie]

I'm assuming that the SS mounting "bolts" are flat head machine screws with either a Phillips or Slot head.
A Phillips head automatically gives you a "center" for drilling out.
Another idea: If you have reasonable access to the heads and a MIG/TIG, a trick is to place an SS nut on top of the machine screw and use the threaded hole in the nut as a recess to weld it to the head of the machine screw.
Then you can use a socket wrench to advantage for removal.
Being able to apply the required pressure on a drill bit in a sideways position will not be easy, a second person using/operating a ratchet-strap around the drill motor and mast may achieve enough pressure.
Desperate solutions for desperate problems?

[Celestialsailor]

Geeez...would you guys stop! This idea of brute force is the way to go is absurd. Use freakin heat! If you haven';t already buggered up the head of the fastener, take a propane torch or map gas or if you have one an oxy/acetylene set up with the smallest braising tip and heat the head up and cool a few time. What is binding (seized) is the oxide lodged in the threads that is binding the geometry of the threads.

By the way...learn how to drill if thats the only way after destroying the head of the fastener. Step 1...center punch the head. Step 2...use a center drill.

Step 3...next, drill with a split point stub drill. No...Home Depot does not have them. Go to a Machine Shop tool outlet.

Dip that drill in some thick oil and use steady pressure on the drill at a medium speed.
No, you don't need Cobalt. No you don't need Titanium/Nitride coating. Just a high speed steel split point drill bit.


So lets say it's a 5/16" machine screw you are removing. Use a 1/4" center drill, then a 1/8" stub drill, going past the depth of head. Then a 5/16" stub drill.

[billcrowley]

You can buy left-hand drill bits made specifically for this situation which aid in removing the remains of the bolt as you drill and the metals gain heat from the process. Select the same size used to pilot a tap for the bolt size you are dealing with. Use automotive anti-sieze compound for re-installing winch bolts, either on the original or newly tapped holes.

[Celestialsailor]

If a stainless fastener is oxide-seized in an aluminum mast for years and years, all you're going to accomplish is snapping the drill. The heat from a drill is unlikely to produce a few hundred degrees of heat. Aluminum oxide breaks down at 400-600 degrees F. Aluminum melts at 1221 degrees F.

[Dieseldude]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

I have two Harken 16 winches on either side of the mast. One is siezed and I am trying to rebuild it. I took the top off and cleaned the outer gears, bearings and pawls, but there are additional gears and pawls that I cannot get to unless I remove the winch from the mast.

Well....I don't think it has been removed since the boat was built in 1997. The six large SS bolts will not budge, yes, I've tried PB Blaster, Corrosion X and impact drivers.

The only thing I can think of from here is to drill out the screws, grind them flat, then re-drill and tap new holes. I've not had much luck drilling stainless, is there a specific bit I need to use?

The white corrosion product that forms between stainless and aluminum actually forms a wedge between the threads. It is like vice jaws gripping the bolt. I have found nothing that is able to dissolve it. If heating or impact tool do not work, of course drilling is the only remaining option.


After grinding the fastener flush, it should be center punched. Then a pilot hole can be started with a combination drill. These are available from machine shop supply stores. They are much less prone to wonder off center than a common twist drill. The bolt can then be drilled into with a small drill for a pilot hole. A pilot drill should be chosen that is a slightly larger diameter than the "chisel point" of the final drill. (That is the drill bit flat center that actually does little cutting.) A "stub" drill is a better choice, than a jobber length drill, as it is less prone to flex and skate. Counter clockwise drills are available that are intended for this task. Machine shop supply stores should have these. The idea is for the counterclockwise force to cause the bolt to back out. Sometimes this even works and the drill will actually back out the bolt.


High quality bits are essential for stainless. I would suggest spending the extra for cobalt or carbide to help insure success. One or two quality drills can be cheaper than many cheap ones that easily dull in stainless. Keep in mind that stainless easily "work hardens" by heat and pressure. So excessive heat and pressure will act against you. Drills must be run at low speed and kept at just enough pressure to get moderate chip formation. A cutting oil that is intended for stainless should be frequently applied. Drilling in short bursts with a break in between will prevent excessive heat build up that would cause work hardening. You may need several drill bits in case excessive dulling occurs. Dull bits demand a lot of pressure that would cause work hardening. Once stainless work hardens it cannot be drilled by ordinary means. You might try heating it with a torch and allowing it to cool slowly to anneal the metal. Covering it with heat resistant material will help to insure slow cooling.



Being perched up a mast offers challenges for holding a drill on a perpendicular course. So all you can do is be as careful as you can. An elaborate drill guide plate could be fabricated using a drill press, and this could be clamped in place. But that would be a project in and of itself. You could first drill a hole sized for an easy out, and give that a whirl. As you drill out material, some stress is relieved from the bolt, so the bolt might just move with a good easy out, and the original threads in your winch or mast would be salvaged. Also, heating the bolt after it has been drilled will allow for some inward expansion of the metal that could relieve outward stress against the threads. This might help the easy out method succeed. I have found that the tapered screw thread type easy outs do not work so well. They tend to wedge out and expand the stuck bolt. Straight flute tapered easy outs seem to work better.


This job cannot be rushed and requires time, patience, and a lot of care and tooth gritting. Wishing you success.


PS:
I'm sure that you will be using a good antisieze when you bolt things back. Suggest marine grade, as it should not introduce a third metal that adds to galvanic corrosion potential. I find that silicon grease is good too.

[Rightbrainer]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Based on a recommendation by Mainesail I purchased a set of Norseman bits. not cheap but they are my go to when drilling stainless. Beats any other bit I've used for this.

In case you don't already know, the secret to drilling stainless or any metal is slow speed and heavy pressure on the bit. Some cutting fluid doesn't hurt.

Yep, that's the trick. SS work-hardens so low speed, sharp bit, and really lean into it.

[s/v Jedi]

Well I have drilled stainless steel often enough to have bad dreams when new projects come up

I found that type of drill bit -does- matter. Of course it can be done by just some high speed drill bits, but it’s gonna take longer, probably you wear out a couple of bits and if unlucky break one. The ones that cut better and last longer are the M42 grade bits, often called 8% Cobalt, like these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

As others wrote, a cutting fluid, high pressure and low speed are key. The bit needs to cut and you need to press so hard that it keeps cutting. If it work hardens, you’re f’ed and it’ll cost you a bit probably. I prefer a M3 or M4 bit because thinner ones can break with the required force. The set I linked to above have stepped points which actually work. Bosch has a good Imperial sizes set too: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Again, look for M42 grade

Someone wrote about left hand drill bits: these are great, they normally take remnants out instead of them falling into the mast, railing etc.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I found that type of drill bit -does- matter. Of course it can be done by just some high speed drill bits, but it’s gonna take longer, probably you wear out a couple of bits and if unlucky break one. The ones that cut better and last longer are the M42 grade bits, often called 8% Cobalt, like these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sorry boss...but M42 is still high speed steel, even though it's called colbalt. I'm a Toolmaker of 40+ years. I know what I am talking about. As you and a lot of others pointed out, it is technique. Trust me on this one...put all the B.S. drills and what not away and please just try heat first. I use an oxy/acetylene torch with the smallest braising tip concentrated on the center of the fastener for 10 seconds or so at a time. If it makes you feel better, you can tap on it while it is cooling, then reheat a few times. More times than not, it will unscrew like a normal fastener. Oxidization breaks down over 400 degrees F.

I laugh at some of my customers that repeatedly bring me aluminum heads with seized in studs. The 3/8" studs are rounded down to about an 1/8" after they brutalize it with vice-grips or worst sheered off. At that point I have to indicate (dial indicator) whats left while viewing it under 10 power loupe. Then I have to drill out the center of the bolt to the thread drill size and peel the threads out with mini-needle-nose. I usually costs them $200 since it is all about the set-up. I always tell them to use heat first...but Oh no...they like beating on it.