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Old 07-03-2021, 01:30   #1
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Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

I have attached a schematic of the relay and a photo of the real thing - I only have left in the wires for the battery + and + for the pump.


Here are a few questions:


1) Why are there 2 Positive wires in the Pump Positive? 1 wire goes to the pump, the other disappears into the bilge somewhere - Nothing else runs at the same time. There is also 2 + wires from the battery, but I am presuming one follows onto another Sump Pump somewhere as all four sumps are on the same circuit.


2) This relay is playing up and the only one I can find is around Aud $250 delivered. I know car relays are cheap as are 12V switches - Does anyone know how to recreate something that will have a manual on/off Via a switch and a float switch option (not including any delay) for running the sump? EG Type of Relay to use and how to wire it to switch and float.
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Old 07-03-2021, 03:58   #2
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Is that the standard Lagoon 440 shower pump relay? I thought they had a standard automotive type timer relay about $20
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Old 07-03-2021, 05:03   #3
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
I have attached a schematic of the relay and a photo of the real thing - I only have left in the wires for the battery + and + for the pump.


Here are a few questions:


1) Why are there 2 Positive wires in the Pump Positive? 1 wire goes to the pump, the other disappears into the bilge somewhere - Nothing else runs at the same time. There is also 2 + wires from the battery, but I am presuming one follows onto another Sump Pump somewhere as all four sumps are on the same circuit.


2) This relay is playing up and the only one I can find is around Aud $250 delivered. I know car relays are cheap as are 12V switches - Does anyone know how to recreate something that will have a manual on/off Via a switch and a float switch option (not including any delay) for running the sump? EG Type of Relay to use and how to wire it to switch and float.
1. WAG - there were two pumps at some stage but now only one or the second pump has failed sometime which is why you can't hear it running. The only real way to know what the second wire did is to follow it!

2. Circuit below will do what you asked, you can fill in the negative side and provide appropriate fusing / circuit breaker and wire sizing. Any 12V switch will do, chose one you like the look of.

Relay type can be almost any automotive relay (horn or headlight or similar). Something like this https://www.jaycar.com.au/30a-horn-relay-spst/p/SY4068

or a fused one like this https://www.jaycar.com.au/automotive...t-30a/p/SY4077
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Old 07-03-2021, 19:25   #4
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Wotname has provided a solid wiring diagram and solutions to your questions.


Options for you to consider

You could modify Wotname's wiring solution slightly and use 3 way switch for On / Off / Auto section, where On position goes to directly to relay, Off is off , Auto goes via float switch to relay. See jpg attached.



Alternative for part of question 2:
Quote:
2) This relay is playing up and the only one I can find is around Aud $250 delivered.

The (expensive in OZ) Scheiber 36.16112.00 provides a 6 second delay from the float switch opening to ensure the sump pump clears all the water out, post the float switch opening, thus stopping an on /off cycling. An alternative to that timer is the adjustable Hella-5HE-996-152-131 (AUD$58) or you could use a basic NE555 based timer, (AUD$9:00) placed inside a quality polycarbonate container. (AUD$16:00)

Links :
Hella Timer:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Hella-5HE-...5152349&sr=8-2

Generic 555Timer:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/For-NE55...IAAOSw9r1WBn2O

Polybox for generic timer:
https://www.jaycar.com.au/ip65-seale...sort=relevance


Happy pumping
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Old 07-03-2021, 22:21   #5
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Tin View Post
Is that the standard Lagoon 440 shower pump relay? I thought they had a standard automotive type timer relay about $20

I presume so - All 4 showers have them
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Old 07-03-2021, 22:28   #6
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Thanks Wotname and OldGreyB.


That Hella Relay looks like the job - It is 5 Pins - I presume for pin 87A is simply not wired up and would look like my attached image?
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Old 08-03-2021, 00:46   #7
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFO View Post
Thanks Wotname and OldGreyB.


That Hella Relay looks like the job - It is 5 Pins - I presume for pin 87A is simply not wired up and would look like my attached image?

UFO , the Hella timer relays have different pin outs numbers:
See attached datasheet from Hella database: (Hella Pinout.jpg) and the modified wiring diagram On /Off/Auto with the pin outs for you to follow. (Modified Sump Control.jpg)

If you choose just a normal relay, then post the part number and I can revise the wiring termination numbers if needed.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:32   #8
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldGreyB View Post
UFO , the Hella timer relays have different pin outs numbers:
See attached datasheet from Hella database: (Hella Pinout.jpg) and the modified wiring diagram On /Off/Auto with the pin outs for you to follow. (Modified Sump Control.jpg)

If you choose just a normal relay, then post the part number and I can revise the wiring termination numbers if needed.

Thanks for your time and effort - That's pretty clear - Just have to wait for it to arrive now. Picked up a switch and mounting box for $10, so it will end up being a lot cheaper than replacing the original like for like.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:44   #9
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

Do you have an indicator light or alarm for when the pump is running? That wire is energized when the pump is running so the second wire could turn on an indicator.
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Old 08-03-2021, 02:58   #10
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

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Do you have an indicator light or alarm for when the pump is running? That wire is energized when the pump is running so the second wire could turn on an indicator.

It's just an old Jabsco shower sump pump - Its not exactly quiet, so no light/alarm needed - Its an alarm in itself!
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:47   #11
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

When our shower sumps started requiring time and effort (and $) for maintenance, I replaced them with Whale IC (automatic sensing with timer logic) grey water ( diaphragm) pumps.

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/pr...ey-waste-pumps

That change also eliminated the delightful routine task of mucking out putrid shower sumps...

I have yet to perform any maintenance on these pumps after 3+ years of daily use... and counting...

In case this is of interest.

Cheers! Bill
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Old 08-03-2021, 17:41   #12
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

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Originally Posted by wrwakefield View Post
When our shower sumps started requiring time and effort (and $) for maintenance, I replaced them with Whale IC (automatic sensing with timer logic) grey water ( diaphragm) pumps.

https://www.whalepumps.com/marine/pr...ey-waste-pumps

That change also eliminated the delightful routine task of mucking out putrid shower sumps...

I have yet to perform any maintenance on these pumps after 3+ years of daily use... and counting...

In case this is of interest.

Cheers! Bill

If/when any of the others start to go I will revisit the Whale option - Thx
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Old 14-03-2021, 22:49   #13
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

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Originally Posted by OldGreyB View Post
UFO , the Hella timer relays have different pin outs numbers:
See attached datasheet from Hella database: (Hella Pinout.jpg) and the modified wiring diagram On /Off/Auto with the pin outs for you to follow. (Modified Sump Control.jpg)

If you choose just a normal relay, then post the part number and I can revise the wiring termination numbers if needed.

All done and working beautifully -Thx


Weird things was even though their relay diagram shows 87 as the powered on point, it was actually 87A or maybe the schematic on the side of the relay had the pins labelled in the wrong place? - Anyway its all good.
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Old 14-03-2021, 23:37   #14
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

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Originally Posted by UFO View Post
All done and working beautifully -Thx


Weird things was even though their relay diagram shows 87 as the powered on point, it was actually 87A or maybe the schematic on the side of the relay had the pins labelled in the wrong place? - Anyway its all good.

Methinks you misunderstood the wiring diagram.

Power from the circuit breaker (or fuse) enters the the Hella timer relay on pin 30. This power can be seen at pin 87 when the relay is not activated.

Pin 87 is called the 'normally closed' contact which means pin 30 and pin 87 are connected when the relay is unenergised (relaxed).

When the relay is activated (operated), pin 30 is now connected to pin 87A so the power will now be seen on pin 87A.

Pin 30 is called the 'common' terminal. (COM)
Pin 87 is called the 'normally closed' terminal. (NC)
Pin 87A is called the 'normally open' terminal. (NO).
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Old 14-03-2021, 23:49   #15
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Re: Relay Wiring - Shower Sump - Help Needed

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Methinks you misunderstood the wiring diagram.

Power from the circuit breaker (or fuse) enters the the Hella timer relay on pin 30. This power can be seen at pin 87 when the relay is not activated.

Pin 87 is called the 'normally closed' contact which means pin 30 and pin 87 are connected when the relay is unenergised (relaxed).

When the relay is activated (operated), pin 30 is now connected to pin 87A so the power will now be seen on pin 87A.

Pin 30 is called the 'common' terminal. (COM)
Pin 87 is called the 'normally closed' terminal. (NC)
Pin 87A is called the 'normally open' terminal. (NO).

I got that and the Diagram was pretty clear, but when attaching the Pump to 87A it came on without any input from the switch or Float, but when attaching to 87 it worked as it should - Maybe I misread the schematic on the side of the relay and confused 87 & 87A pins - I'll check next time i'm on the boat
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