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Old 01-03-2019, 18:31   #61
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Interesting that a number of boats, incl. mine & DHooper's, came from the factory with stainless steel liners. Wonder why?
Possibly because it was easier to make an SS liner then foam into place. Bad practice because as Pelagic said, the metal transmits heat and is especially a problem if the SS metal doesn't have a thermal break to the outside or is used for the inside of the lid or door. Also a lot of earlier cabinets were refrigerated with auto air con compressors and efficiency was of less concern.

Cheers OzePete
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Old 01-03-2019, 19:10   #62
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
I think it was a sales tool by the builder who didn't know or care about efficiency.
Stainless interior are more suitable for commercial walk in units or land based conventional refrigerator units where power is not an issue.

Super yachts with 24 hr generators install commercial grade stainless units
Stainless was used as moisture resist drain pan liner on quality boat iceboxes. Refrigeration came much later as an aftermarket item.
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Old 01-03-2019, 20:00   #63
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

sea Frost
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Old 01-03-2019, 20:00   #64
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
Stainless was used as moisture resist drain pan liner on quality boat iceboxes. Refrigeration came much later as an aftermarket item.
Yes, that makes sense the durability against ice blocks and impermeability from the melted ice would favour stainless over other composite materials.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:06   #65
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Yes, while stainless steel is a poor thermal insulator when compared to other materials the level of effort required to replace it isn't worth the added R value from my perspective. No small feat tearing up the galley.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:13   #66
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Yes, while stainless steel is a poor thermal insulator when compared to other materials the level of effort required to replace it isn't worth the added R value from my perspective. No small feat tearing up the galley.
You are correct, the benefit of stainless liner helping to normalize box temperature throughout offsets any affect of metal on insulation value.
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Old 02-03-2019, 09:55   #67
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Yes, while stainless steel is a poor thermal insulator when compared to other materials the level of effort required to replace it isn't worth the added R value from my perspective. No small feat tearing up the galley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
You are correct, the benefit of stainless liner helping to normalize box temperature throughout offsets any affect of metal on insulation value.
This is a relief for me. I was getting increasingly worried that just trying to remove my SS liners would be quite a job in and of itself. So I gather what you'd suggest is simply adding the recommended insulation inboard of the liners, thereby reducing the interior volume? The vapor barrier would then be applied up against the liners (warm side), and the old insulation on the cold side of the liners would just be left intact? If this would make an appreciable difference then it sounds like it's worth the reduced box capacity not to have to tear everything up. At least for the larger boxes that boats like mine & DHooper's have.
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:28   #68
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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This is a relief for me. I was getting increasingly worried that just trying to remove my SS liners would be quite a job in and of itself. So I gather what you'd suggest is simply adding the recommended insulation inboard of the liners, thereby reducing the interior volume? The vapor barrier would then be applied up against the liners (warm side), and the old insulation on the cold side of the liners would just be left intact? If this would make an appreciable difference then it sounds like it's worth the reduced box capacity not to have to tear everything up. At least for the larger boxes that boats like mine & DHooper's have.
The addition of water resistant Extruded Polystyrene (Blue Board) sandwiching the stainless liner between old insulation will not have any effect on the combined R value of the two insulation's. Making boxes smaller is a common practice in order to make large boxes comparable with small 12 volt systems. This a simple and inexpensive temporary or permanent process. The permanent installation is going to require an impact and abrasion resistant home made liner.
It takes time to debunk all these old first mate tails.
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:55   #69
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Originally Posted by Richard Kollmann View Post
The addition of water resistant Extruded Polystyrene (Blue Board) sandwiching the stainless liner between old insulation will not have any effect on the combined R value of the two insulation's. Making boxes smaller is a common practice in order to make large boxes comparable with small 12 volt systems. This a simple and inexpensive temporary or permanent process. The permanent installation is going to require an impact and abrasion resistant home made liner.
It takes time to debunk all these old first mate tails.
I liked OzeFridge's idea of a 5mm acrylic (ABS) liner for the new installation except I think it may only be available as clear (transparent). What about what's commonly referred to in the marine world as "starboard?" A workable homemade liner? I've used it with success in other applications and it seems like durable stuff.
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:00   #70
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Wow! So much great information ... it must be totally overwhelming for somebody who just wants to get a cold beer...however you can see how much time people(cruisers) spend to solve these problems.


Just to add a couple of thoughts that weren't obvious to me when I started cruising ...


Non-sealed insulation will absorb water and become totally useless regardless of how much there is... so NEW insulation MUST be sealed water and air tight inside and out. The easiest way is fiberglass sheet and epoxy or fiberglass tabbing. The stainless is a huge problem if it can transmit cold to the outside but not if it is just a liner inside the unit. Realize that you will have to defrost and clean them periodically. Water drains can be very inefficient.



More insulation is always best if you can do it. I spent a lot of time looking for refrigeration insulation but the closed cell sheets from building supply stores works great. Smaller boxes is better too to a point. Efficient refrigeration units are amazing! I once had a cool blue system and am a big fan! Engine driven systems may be efficient too but who wants to run the engine at anchor EVERY day and what do you do when you haul out?



Why did you remove the old system? I once removed a system and then someone pointed out that it probably just needed a thermostat. It's been working great for 14 years since I replaced the thermostat.


While it may not feel too hot in the Bahamas or Caribbean when you are in the water it could easily be 110 in the boat during the day. For air cooled the compressor location is important and hopefully that's not in the engine compartment. Even in the cabin its going to run a lot. That's why water cooled may be desirable but again how is that going to work hauled out? Many cool by recirculating fresh water from and to tanks. Of course, hot weather is when you will want that cold beer etc. so don't plan on a frig that runs all of the time in moderate conditions because it will not be able to keep it cold when the weather is hot.



No matter how little you have to run the engine or generator it will be annoying so learn about solar. The best solar system is twice the size the need. Seriously, all these budgets are great but really they are usually best case and things happen so you need multiple and oversize capacity. Also they work much better when the mast and boom are not shading them. You can buy a lot of solar for what a slightly more efficient replacement frig/freezer system will cost. Best of all it will work great when you are hauled out or off the boat. You will need some backup for when you get multiple days of rain but that is unusual in the Bahamas.



Wind generators are useless in the Caribbean when you anchor behind mountains. While they generally work well in the Bahamas when it does blow...but it may not blow for days too.
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Old 04-03-2019, 09:55   #71
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Hey Zing -- good tips & overall info. Thanks!

Does the typical blue board so often used and available from the big box stores also need to be completely sealed to avoid absorbing water?
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:53   #72
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZING View Post
Wow! So much great information ... it must be totally overwhelming for somebody who just wants to get a cold beer...however you can see how much time people(cruisers) spend to solve these problems.


Just to add a couple of thoughts that weren't obvious to me when I started cruising ...


Non-sealed insulation will absorb water and become totally useless regardless of how much there is... so NEW insulation MUST be sealed water and air tight inside and out. The easiest way is fiberglass sheet and epoxy or fiberglass tabbing. The stainless is a huge problem if it can transmit cold to the outside but not if it is just a liner inside the unit. Realize that you will have to defrost and clean them periodically. Water drains can be very inefficient.



More insulation is always best if you can do it. I spent a lot of time looking for refrigeration insulation but the closed cell sheets from building supply stores works great. Smaller boxes is better too to a point. Efficient refrigeration units are amazing! I once had a cool blue system and am a big fan! Engine driven systems may be efficient too but who wants to run the engine at anchor EVERY day and what do you do when you haul out?



Why did you remove the old system? I once removed a system and then someone pointed out that it probably just needed a thermostat. It's been working great for 14 years since I replaced the thermostat.


While it may not feel too hot in the Bahamas or Caribbean when you are in the water it could easily be 110 in the boat during the day. For air cooled the compressor location is important and hopefully that's not in the engine compartment. Even in the cabin its going to run a lot. That's why water cooled may be desirable but again how is that going to work hauled out? Many cool by recirculating fresh water from and to tanks. Of course, hot weather is when you will want that cold beer etc. so don't plan on a frig that runs all of the time in moderate conditions because it will not be able to keep it cold when the weather is hot.



No matter how little you have to run the engine or generator it will be annoying so learn about solar. The best solar system is twice the size the need. Seriously, all these budgets are great but really they are usually best case and things happen so you need multiple and oversize capacity. Also they work much better when the mast and boom are not shading them. You can buy a lot of solar for what a slightly more efficient replacement frig/freezer system will cost. Best of all it will work great when you are hauled out or off the boat. You will need some backup for when you get multiple days of rain but that is unusual in the Bahamas.



Wind generators are useless in the Caribbean when you anchor behind mountains. While they generally work well in the Bahamas when it does blow...but it may not blow for days too.
Yes indeed! The wealth of information shared on this forum on such a variety of technologies and by subject matter experts in almost real time globally is beyond outstanding. I must admit to being a little jealous receiving mail from members waking up on their boats throughout the world and responding to threads. Isn't technology great!
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Old 04-03-2019, 10:54   #73
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Coming from a home with a large refrigerator to our liveaboard, the balbour refrigerator has the smallest and hard-to-reach freezer. I have to tear everything out to get to the items in the freezer. I put up with this for 3 years and finally I blew. Some items were not frozen and I am tired of reaching way in the back to get to the freezer and still cannot get the item out. My husband came to the rescue and got me a portable Ac/DC isotherm refrigerator from Defenders at President Day special. It was shipped within 3 days. I set the temp to freezing level and voila! Everything is roomy and frozen and even ice cream! We can even use this for our long road trips.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:20   #74
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

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Yes indeed! The wealth of information shared on this forum on such a variety of technologies and by subject matter experts in almost real time globally is beyond outstanding. I must admit to being a little jealous receiving mail from members waking up on their boats throughout the world and responding to threads. Isn't technology great!
The 9 OR 10 factual points ZING just made is typical boat refrigerator user feed back from a knowledgeable boater, Thanks ZING.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:38   #75
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Re: Refrigeration Refit Challenge

Exile,

You're very welcome. Hope it's helpful.

Certainly use only "closed cell" insulation and I believe the blue board is. I've used the board with the reflective aluminum coating on one side. I'm sure there is better stuff somewhere but there is going to be a lot of waste and you always need a little more. But best to also encapsulate with fiberglass and seal it. I've used the 4x8 fiberglass shower sheets and sealed with epoxy. Mostly probably hidden anyway. I would also fill corners, etc with spray foam first. Perhaps this is belt and suspenders but if it helps it last a little longer... Of course nothing on a boat will last forever but once water gets in it is totally useless. I've been looking for reasonable super insulation for a long time but it seems its always just around the corner.



The door gaskets are also important because poor seals mean lost cool as well as more frequent defrosting because of introducing additional moisture to the inside. One day there will be a frost free boat fridge - right?



While I'm thinking about it a digital thermostat and display as well as measurement of amp hours used for each frig is also very helpful in understanding what is working and what is not. Otherwise you are just guessing. What are you going to do with "it seems to be running a lot"?
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