Propane Question - Should I be Worried?

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Don't think anyone said that, did they ?

You are correct. The only joint allowed by ABYC in a propane line after it leaves the regulator in the propane locker is the connection at the ONE appliance

Post 68, this thread.

Jim

[Jim Cate]

You can have all the tees you want WITHIN the propane locker,meaning that you can feed several appliances from the same tank/regulator.
Tees or joints of any kind WITHIN the hull are what is to be avoided.

This is what I had believed, but as noted above, in your post 68 it said no tees after the regulator.

Honestly, the restriction seems a bit paranoid. If one can safely make the joint between copper and hose and stove, why is a tee so much more dangerous? Obviously, it should be accessible for inspection and well plumbed, but the absolute restriction seems a bit OTT. I'll continue to follow the regs, but I will also continue to question them when they don't seem completely sensible.

Jim

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This is what I had believed, but as noted above, in your post 68 it said no tees after the regulator.

Honestly, the restriction seems a bit paranoid. If one can safely make the joint between copper and hose and stove, why is a tee so much more dangerous? Obviously, it should be accessible for inspection and well plumbed, but the absolute restriction seems a bit OTT. I'll continue to follow the regs, but I will also continue to question them when they don't seem completely sensible.

Jim

ABYC A-1 1.7.2
Each appliance shall be served by a separate low pressure i.e., 14" water column (3.5kPa) regulated supply line that shall originate inside the cylinder locker or protective enclosure.

Double regulation is not workable so the only way to do that is with a 'T' before any other regulator.

[wsmurdoch]

I 2014 I posted this story of a propane leak on my boat in an earlier thread. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-130450.html

----------

This spring in the Bahamas while cooking breakfast the stove went out. Checking in the propane locker I was surprised to see the cylinder pressure was zero. The 20 pound tank should have been half full. When I began to unscrew the Acme (QCC) connector I saw the problem. The plastic connector was cracked partially separating the threaded barrel of the connector from its end. Ten pounds of propane had leaked from the cracked fitting and spilled into the propane locker. Luckily, the overboard drains and lack of an ignition source prevented a possible catastrophe. The connector had been tightened by hand. I’m a 135 pound, 63 year old fellow, so I don’t think it was over-tightened. The connector is green and marked, “Use with type 1, UL, MAX WP 250 PSI, 250-325 kBTU/h, RECA”.

I took this photo of the failed connector at home so you can see the crack.


------

A leak down test with a 0-300 psig gauge before the regulator would have found this leak. A test with an in-line bubbler after the regulator would not have found it. I am now much more diligent in doing the leak down testing.

[john61ct]

Make sure to pay a bit more for lpg fittings from a quality mfg like Rego and Marshall, these days mainstream suppliers even to professionals default to the little extra profit using cheap Chines cr^p.

Unless the customer shows awareness and specifies the good stuff.

There's counterfeit gear too, so if you're DIY (which I don't recommend) don't just order online, work with a trusted propane shop to get stuff in for you and pay them to at least inspect.

Replace stuff regularly, rubber hoses each year IMO.

Not an area to pinch pennies.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by TreblePlink

OK, so without a pressure gauge (which can be used for leak testing) how do you know when you're close to being out of propane?

Pour boiling hot water down the side of the tank. Then run your fingers UP the tank from the bottom. Where it goes from cool or cold to hot is the level of the propane inside the tank: a quarter of the way up from the bottom indicates a quarter full.

[Scorpius]

Originally Posted by Scorpius99eh

Pour boiling hot water down the side of the tank. Then run your fingers UP the tank from the bottom. Where it goes from cool or cold to hot is the level of the propane inside the tank: a quarter of the way up from the bottom indicates a quarter full.

A pressure gauge is not a good indicator of propane level. It will stay high until just before you're out of propane, then plummet. Variations in pressure are mostly due to ambient temperature change.

[john61ct]

It is really not difficult to just get a proper float gauge fitted and see exactly how much is left.

Remote sending to a display gauge mounted where it is easily viewed is just a bit more so.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This is what I had believed, but as noted above, in your post 68 it said no tees after the regulator.

Honestly, the restriction seems a bit paranoid. If one can safely make the joint between copper and hose and stove, why is a tee so much more dangerous? Obviously, it should be accessible for inspection and well plumbed, but the absolute restriction seems a bit OTT. I'll continue to follow the regs, but I will also continue to question them when they don't seem completely sensible.

Jim

Sorry folks!! My error in wording "after ... regulator". My mind was thinking -No Tees or other joints outside the propane locker-

Obviously there has to be at least one joint made where the feed line connects the appliance. Yes-this joint is a possible future leak. That is why it should be easily accessed & soap checked regularly.
A short section of propane approved factory crimped flex hose is recommended at the appliance connection. Yes-that now means two joints-but you have made the situation safer by eliminating possible strain on the "hard pipe" joints.
Your other option is to use all proper propane rated hose right from the gas locker to the appliance as stated in the link.

In addition,a propane alarm is required,with the sensor mounted right below the joint/connection to the appliance (near the floor). As stated in the article,if the propane sensor is mounted under the floor(in the bilge area), it will be too late-you now have propane in your bilge! If you mount the sensor in a damp area,you will be replacing the TGS813 sensor on a regular basis-it does not tolerate dampness, flying dirt,diesel or other fumes,etc.
Some alarms allow for several sensors,if you wish to monitor other areas for whatever.

The whole object of safe plumbing & handling of propane is to eliminate the possibility of leaks anywhere. Since this is impossible,the best we can do is minimize the possibility of leaks & restrict their location to "outside" the vessel as much as possible.

If we treated propane installations with the same respect we treat petrol/gasoline,.....

Hope this makes sense.
Len

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by deblen

Jim
You can have all the tees you want WITHIN the propane locker,meaning that you can feed several appliances from the same tank/regulator.
Tees or joints of any kind WITHIN the hull are what is to be avoided.
I presume the principal is that every joint is a possible future leak. Leaks outside the hull,that can disperse overboard,are the "safest" place for a leak to occur,whereas a leak within the vessel presents much more risk of explosion.

Len

Certainly, but keep in mind that we're putting a lot of faith in the propane locker. I think a minority of propane lockers I've ever seen would actually work as intended, and don't forget that the horrific Lord Trenchard explosion resulted from a leak INSIDE the propane locker.

If you're going to have a "T" connection, undoubtedly inside the locker is the best place for it, but the more different propane appliances you use, the greater the risk.

[GordMay]

Re: Alde gas leak detectors, aka Alde bubble leak testers

From Dockhead’s linked website:
“... Press the red cap 1–8 minutes and watch the glycol fluid inside the glass chamber. If there is a leak in the system, the fluctuating gas pressure will create bubbles in the fluid...”

However:

TESTING INSTRUCTIONS
Open the main valve on the gas bottle.
Shut off all LPG burning appliances. Extinguish the burners on all units equipped with an ignition safety device.
Then wait about 60 seconds until the ignition safety device has cut out the gas supply (a click should be heard). By setting the gas valve to the
‘ON’ position on appliances with an ignition safety device the soundness of the ignition device is also tested.
Depress the red testing button as far as it will go and hold for about 60 seconds.
Leaking bubbles may immediately appear in the sight glass (see figure 3) if there is any leakage in the system.
If, through the presence of bubbles, the leak detector shows that a leakage exists in the system, then check the location of these with a soapy solution or a leakage spray.
Spray on to all connections and joints until the leakage is located. If no leak can be found on joints or couplings the leakage may exist in some safety device.
IMPORTANT! do not use the system if a leakage is detected.

Here ☞ http://www.alde.co.uk/downloads/alde_4071_instruct.pdf

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This is what I had believed, but as noted above, in your post 68 it said no tees after the regulator.

Honestly, the restriction seems a bit paranoid. If one can safely make the joint between copper and hose and stove, why is a tee so much more dangerous? Obviously, it should be accessible for inspection and well plumbed, but the absolute restriction seems a bit OTT. I'll continue to follow the regs, but I will also continue to question them when they don't seem completely sensible.

Jim

You misunderstood him -- it's OK AFTER the regulator provided it's inside the locker.

But you are right that this is somewhat arbitary. Theoretically, it could be safer actually to have the "T" inside, in order to avoid a second long run of hose from the locker.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Scorpius99eh

Pour boiling hot water down the side of the tank. Then run your fingers UP the tank from the bottom. Where it goes from cool or cold to hot is the level of the propane inside the tank: a quarter of the way up from the bottom indicates a quarter full.

Lot easier just to WEIGH it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

I 2014 I posted this story of a propane leak on my boat in an earlier thread. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-130450.html

----------

This spring in the Bahamas while cooking breakfast the stove went out. Checking in the propane locker I was surprised to see the cylinder pressure was zero. The 20 pound tank should have been half full. When I began to unscrew the Acme (QCC) connector I saw the problem. The plastic connector was cracked partially separating the threaded barrel of the connector from its end. Ten pounds of propane had leaked from the cracked fitting and spilled into the propane locker. Luckily, the overboard drains and lack of an ignition source prevented a possible catastrophe. The connector had been tightened by hand. I’m a 135 pound, 63 year old fellow, so I don’t think it was over-tightened. The connector is green and marked, “Use with type 1, UL, MAX WP 250 PSI, 250-325 kBTU/h, RECA”.

I took this photo of the failed connector at home so you can see the crack.


------

A leak down test with a 0-300 psig gauge before the regulator would have found this leak. A test with an in-line bubbler after the regulator would not have found it. I am now much more diligent in doing the leak down testing.

Scary!

That's an argument for a gauge for sure. Maybe both is the best of all.

[deblen]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Certainly, but keep in mind that we're putting a lot of faith in the propane locker. I think a minority of propane lockers I've ever seen would actually work as intended, and don't forget that the horrific Lord Trenchard explosion resulted from a leak INSIDE the propane locker.

If you're going to have a "T" connection, undoubtedly inside the locker is the best place for it, but the more different propane appliances you use, the greater the risk.

Yes. We are putting a lot of faith in a proper installation,no different from proper thru hull inst. or any number of things on our boats-plus proper maintenance.
Minimize the risk. It is impossible to eliminate risk.

The Lord Trenchard incident was caused by a leaky propane locker.