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Old 24-05-2024, 13:00   #121
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Re: Propane for Dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodxcharly View Post
You might check out a gas control system with an alarm and solenoid which shuts off the gas when a leak is detected verses just an alarm.

I went the cheap route and just bought a detector with the alarm only. Which Iíll probably upgrade in the near future.

TRIDENT MARINE
LPG Gas Detection & Control System without Solenoid.

That's nice but I think not essential. If you never use the gas without being near the stove, then it's no biggie to manually shut it off if the alarm goes off.


I actually have one of these, never installed. Need to get around to it.
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:05   #122
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
By design, it was vapor tight to the interior. It was an unnoticed defect.


Surely it had a drain?
Design and build often have only a vague relationship.
Stoopid boat builder tricks
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:19   #123
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Design and build often have only a vague relationship.
Stoopid boat builder tricks
There were 3 gas lockers, and they all had drains:

"Fitted in the bottom of each of the three gas bottle lockers was a drain, connected to outlets in the hull. The drain pipes from the two lockers on the port side were connected at a point shortly before they entered an isolating valve on the hull’s skin fitting. The single locker on the starboard side had its own drain line with a dedicated skin fitting and isolating valve."

From the official accident report: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/expl...people-injured

And they had incredibly diligent procedures for pumping the bilges:

"While at sea, standard operational procedure for this class of vessel require that all bilges be pumped every hour. Once all water has been pumped out, procedures require that the bilge pump be given thirty more strokes to remove any gas which might have accumulated. Similar procedures are required to be followed in port; once first thing in the morning and once more during the day."


I believe Pete7 of this parish served aboard a sister ship to this Lord Trenchard.


I have always been amazed that such apparently fanatically thorough procedures, could allow such an accident. Maybe it's an all too military obsession with checklists and obliviousness to the obvious (and ultimately fatal) problem, which was the non-gastight locker.
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:23   #124
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Foswick View Post
Not strictly required, but it is smart to have a propane detector as low in the boat as possible which is ideally wired directly to the solenoid.
Certainly required in any propane equipped boat or RV I would ever consider operating.
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:30   #125
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Re: Propane for Dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There were 3 gas lockers, and they all had drains:

"Fitted in the bottom of each of the three gas bottle lockers was a drain, connected to outlets in the hull. The drain pipes from the two lockers on the port side were connected at a point shortly before they entered an isolating valve on the hull’s skin fitting. The single locker on the starboard side had its own drain line with a dedicated skin fitting and isolating valve."

From the official accident report: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/expl...people-injured

And they had incredibly diligent procedures for pumping the bilges:

"While at sea, standard operational procedure for this class of vessel require that all bilges be pumped every hour. Once all water has been pumped out, procedures require that the bilge pump be given thirty more strokes to remove any gas which might have accumulated. Similar procedures are required to be followed in port; once first thing in the morning and once more during the day."


I believe Pete7 of this parish served aboard a sister ship to this Lord Trenchard.


I have always been amazed that such apparently fanatically thorough procedures, could allow such an accident. Maybe it's an all too military obsession with checklists and obliviousness to the obvious (and ultimately fatal) problem, which was the non-gastight locker.
The punch line seems to to be that the "gas tight" lockers were not gas tight ... stoopid.
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:35   #126
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Re: Propane for Dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
There were 3 gas lockers, and they all had drains:

"Fitted in the bottom of each of the three gas bottle lockers was a drain, connected to outlets in the hull. The drain pipes from the two lockers on the port side were connected at a point shortly before they entered an isolating valve on the hullís skin fitting. The single locker on the starboard side had its own drain line with a dedicated skin fitting and isolating valve."

From the official accident report: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/expl...people-injured

And they had incredibly diligent procedures for pumping the bilges:

"While at sea, standard operational procedure for this class of vessel require that all bilges be pumped every hour. Once all water has been pumped out, procedures require that the bilge pump be given thirty more strokes to remove any gas which might have accumulated. Similar procedures are required to be followed in port; once first thing in the morning and once more during the day."


I believe Pete7 of this parish served aboard a sister ship to this Lord Trenchard.


I have always been amazed that such apparently fanatically thorough procedures, could allow such an accident. Maybe it's an all too military obsession with checklists and obliviousness to the obvious (and ultimately fatal) problem, which was the non-gastight locker.
Having isolation valves in the drain while I don't believe they played a part in the accident seems like complexity risk. What happens if the isolation valve is left closed. Oh yeah you don't have a drain anymore which means gas is more likely to leak out of the locker. Even a gas tight seal has a limit. The pressure would rise inside the locker until it overcame the limit of the seal if any and then would spill gas into the vessel.

Meanwhile your average 40 year old often poorly maintained boat is still rather safe with the simple yet robust design of a gas tight seal and open overside drain/vent.
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:46   #127
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Statistical View Post
Having isolation valves in the drain while I don't believe they played a part in the accident seems like complexity risk. What happens if the isolation valve is left closed. Oh yeah you don't have a drain anymore which means gas is more likely to leak out of the locker. Even a gas tight seal has a limit. The pressure would rise inside the locker until it overcame the limit of the seal if any and then would spill gas into the vessel.

Meanwhile your average 40 year old often poorly maintained boat is still rather safe with the simple yet robust design of a gas tight seal and open overside drain/vent.
If Lord Trenchard had followed ABYC Standards, each of those those propane drains would have been dedicated and not joined to any other drain or valve.
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Old 24-05-2024, 13:47   #128
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Re: Propane for Dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Statistical View Post
Having isolation valves in the drain while I don't believe they played a part in the accident seems like complexity risk. What happens if the isolation valve is left closed. Oh yeah you don't have a drain anymore which means gas is more likely to leak out of the locker. Even a gas tight seal has a limit. The pressure would rise inside the locker until it overcame the limit of the seal if any and then would spill gas into the vessel.

Meanwhile your average 40 year old often poorly maintained boat is still rather safe with the simple yet robust design of a gas tight seal and open overside drain/vent.
Yeah, the shutoff valve on a hull penetration, even above the waterline, is pretty much seaworthiness 101, and required by all possible standards world wide. Keeping the sea out is more important than draining the gas out.


Here's a cautionary tale: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ne-211706.html
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
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Old 24-05-2024, 14:40   #129
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Re: Propane for Dummies

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
Do you have a C3H8 detector in the galley near the floor to detect a propane leak? If not the installation you have is potentially very dangerous if you were to have a leak in the galley.
The point is, the chance of a leak is super-remote; I have ONE place where propane could leak: it's inspectable and test-able, daily, if I want. I'm willing to take the chance on its leaking without my noticing, rather than have an alarm which would require: electricity I don't have,or batteries I don't want to waste; money I don't want to spend; space I would rather devote to something else.
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Old 24-05-2024, 15:05   #130
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yeah, the shutoff valve on a hull penetration, even above the waterline, is pretty much seaworthiness 101, and required by all possible standards world wide.
That is not quite accurate. Many standards permit throughulls above the waterline with limitations on purpose, design, materials and angle of heel.
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Old 24-05-2024, 16:41   #131
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Foswick View Post
I know less about propane than the average modern human. My new boat has a propane stove/oven. It was obvious, to me, that the system was probably not installed according to recommended best practices, and that it had suffered a bit of neglect.

The survey identified a couple of specific issues, but I want to give it a complete end-to-end examination and possibly a complete or partial overhaul. I just want to make sure it is done right.

Where can I find a good reference for the proper way to do this? A lot of what I am finding assume you know at least something about propane systems. Here's what I've gleaned, so far:
  1. Propane tanks need to be stored in a dedicated storage locker that vents overboard and is otherwise isolated from the cabin.
  2. Attached to the tank is a pressure gauge which is either built into the regulator or precedes the regulator. The regulator reduces from tank pressure to appliance pressure. I guess there are low pressure regulators and high pressure regulators. I believe boats pretty much use low pressure systems (about 0.5 psi).
  3. Then comes the solenoid valve. To me, it seems more reliable to use a manual shutoff valve, but I guess that's not how most folks do it. I guess I get why.
  4. All of the above needs to be in the vapor-tight propane locker. An LPG supply hose passes through a vapor-tight fitting out of the propane locker directly to the stove in one piece - no intermittent fittings.
  5. Not strictly required, but it is smart to have a propane detector as low in the boat as possible which is ideally wired directly to the solenoid.
There's some additional nonsense about 3/8" vs 1/4" fittings that seems to add unnecessary complications. I only have the one appliance and it takes a 3/8" connection, so I don't "think" I need to worry about this. The regulator will have a pigtail to the tank, and a 3/8" outlet. So, I should only be dealing with 3/8", right?

I think that the purpose of the pressure gauge is that it allows you to detect leaks. Presumably, you would open the system, then shut off the propane at the tank. The pressure should not drop. (Not sure how long to wait before calling it good.)

Do I have it right? Am I missing something important?

I'll have someone look at it when I am done - just because of the stakes, but this doesn't seem hard and it seems like something I can easily do myself.
Tank pressure is between 400 to 1200Kpa depending on temperature (100 to 200psi)
The regulator reduces the pressure to 2.75Mpa.(low pressure 0.392psi), which depends on the required flow rate
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Old 24-05-2024, 22:05   #132
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
That is not quite accurate. Many standards permit throughulls above the waterline with limitations on purpose, design, materials and angle of heel.

Without shutoff valves?
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I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 24-05-2024, 22:06   #133
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
The point is, the chance of a leak is super-remote; I have ONE place where propane could leak: it's inspectable and test-able, daily, if I want. I'm willing to take the chance on its leaking without my noticing, rather than have an alarm which would require: electricity I don't have,or batteries I don't want to waste; money I don't want to spend; space I would rather devote to something else.

Your boat, your rules!
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We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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Old 25-05-2024, 03:51   #134
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Without shutoff valves?
Yes/ Sorry, that was poorly worded/

ABS. ABYC, Transport Canada , CFR's all have exceptions. Some permit no valves on rigid pipes, some above certain angles of heel, fuel vents, propane locker drains, engine exhaust hoses ....
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Old 25-05-2024, 06:53   #135
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Re: Propane for Dummies

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Yes/ Sorry, that was poorly worded/

ABS. ABYC, Transport Canada , CFR's all have exceptions. Some permit no valves on rigid pipes, some above certain angles of heel, fuel vents, propane locker drains, engine exhaust hoses ....

OK, well, we can't know whether the Nic 55 had gas lockers drains which could have been to fit an exception.


Anyway, I don't see any significant "complexity risk". You leave them open, to be closed only in case of emergency. Of course it's good to exercise them to be sure you actually will be able to.


I have a number of throughhulls above the waterline in my boat, and they all have shutoff valves.
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Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
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