Plastic thruhull and Sika-291i

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

They have a flanged collar and when you add that, you create the equivalent of a flanged seacock. I find the Tru Design top of the line but I have no direct experience with it. For boats in the US, Forespar has some good products in plastic (like this one: https://defender.com/en_us/forespar-...room-thru-hull) and in bronze or stainless steel, the Groco flanged adapter is very good: https://defender.com/en_us/groco-ibv...langed-adapter

The flanged collar goes over the thru hull nut.
The collar has a hollow in the base to fit over the nut so it can be installed after the thru hull.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

The flanged collar goes over the thru hull nut.
The collar has a hollow in the base to fit over the nut so it can be installed after the thru hull.

Yes, it is a genius design and it passes the tests so a winner.

But so do the two other products I linked to: all those are good options that increase safety.

The problem is that many boats come with brass or otherwise questionable alloy fittings that quickly turn pink, don’t have a flange to cope with side-loading and a cheap ball valve that quickly seizes, turns pink or have the handle break off. Same for that bad design plastic seacock from Forespar that manages to not pass testing even with a mounting flange.

A lot of inadequate gear is sold and especially for crucial systems like seacocks this is what codes should prevent… but apparently they don’t.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s why EU regulated yachts sink due to seacock problems. It’s pretty easy to buy the TruDesign kit with the collar and be safe. Just a couple Euro’s.

And you base that claim regarding the sinking of EU yachts based on which statistics? While you are at it, please also show one statistic that proves that US yachts are less at risk.

I agree that the True Design Thruhulls and Seacocks are a great product and solve a lot of problems. We use them on all underwater thruhulls ourselves.
Still, I might add that they are costly.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Franziska

And you base that claim regarding the sinking of EU yachts based on which statistics? While you are at it, please also show one statistic that proves that US yachts are less at risk.

I agree that the True Design Thruhulls and Seacocks are a great product and solve a lot of problems. We use them on all underwater thruhulls ourselves.
Still, I might add that they are costly.

Sorry, I don’t have time to repeat that discussion, please read the previous ones where I did put the effort in and posted even the pictures of boats sunk due to failing thru-hull valves. News paper articles, everything.

If the budget is too tight for something like a TruDesign valve then simply skip the insurance policy to make funds available, as these are much more important than insurance.

Sorry for being so blunt but I gotta keep up my reputation for that I’m serious though, people can die because of these failing but nobody dies when there’s no insurance and the TruDesign valve saves your life.

[vladkri]

Let me summarize this lively discussion.
1. Sika 291i is fine to install Tru-design fittings below water. Which is great
because it's a bit cheaper than 3M and there were some cases where
3M 4000 UV de-bonded (turned mushy) after couple years. Not 4200 or
5200, but still.
2. No prime/aktivator is necessary when installing onto regular polyester based
FG hull
Thanks everyone for your time

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Sorry, I don’t have time to repeat that discussion, please read the previous ones where I did put the effort in and posted even the pictures of boats sunk due to failing thru-hull valves. News paper articles, everything.



If the budget is too tight for something like a TruDesign valve then simply skip the insurance policy to make funds available, as these are much more important than insurance.



Sorry for being so blunt but I gotta keep up my reputation for that [emoji3] I’m serious though, people can die because of these failing but nobody dies when there’s no insurance and the TruDesign valve saves your life.

Oh, well. I do realize that you are very fond of those US style seacocks.
Now, if they are mounted where a lot of gear risks hitting them, I understand that they are preferable.
I do understand your concerns to some degree. If they are mounted under a sink with zero chance to have sideways loadings, I do see zero issues with the cheaper Euro style throughhulls.
Agree good plastic ones like TruDesign are the way to go these days.

Don't get why you introduce the insurance argument. It's a bit far-fetched for me. But hey, each to themselves.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Oh, well. I do realize that you are very fond of those US style seacocks.
Now, if they are mounted where a lot of gear risks hitting them, I understand that they are preferable.
I do understand your concerns to some degree. If they are mounted under a sink with zero chance to have sideways loadings, I do see zero issues with the cheaper Euro style throughhulls.
Agree good plastic ones like TruDesign are the way to go these days.

Don't get why you introduce the insurance argument. It's a bit far-fetched for me. But hey, each to themselves.

Agreed, there is no problem with DZR, bronze or TruDesign.

We would have used more TruDesign, but there were supply problems after a factory fire I believe in NZ, so we opted for DZR for the head inlet. Since none of the through hulls are bonded, I fully expect them to last a good few years.

Jedi has introduced the Trudesign argument about collars last time around and I countered that like you, to damage a seacock inside a seat base or under sink would require extreme violence, its just not going to happen being hit by a box of loo rolls or a frying pan.

Of course yachts do sink in Europe, terrible rugged coasts, dangerous whale sharks, fin keels falling off etc. Best folk stay in the Caribbean, Europe is too dangerous

Pete

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by vladkri

Let me summarize this lively discussion.
1. Sika 291i is fine to install Tru-design fittings below water. Which is great
because it's a bit cheaper than 3M and there were some cases where
3M 4000 UV de-bonded (turned mushy) after couple years. Not 4200 or
5200, but still.
2. No prime/aktivator is necessary when installing onto regular polyester based
FG hull
Thanks everyone for your time

Not totally true…291 needs 4 days to cure on the hard else turns to sticky gum underwater
Best to use 3m 4200

Thank you for your time.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Agreed, there is no problem with DZR, bronze or TruDesign.



We would have used more TruDesign, but there were supply problems after a factory fire I believe in NZ, so we opted for DZR for the head inlet. Since none of the through hulls are bonded, I fully expect them to last a good few years.



Jedi has introduced the Trudesign argument about collars last time around and I countered that like you, to damage a seacock inside a seat base or under sink would require extreme violence, its just not going to happen being hit by a box of loo rolls or a frying pan.



Of course yachts do sink in Europe, terrible rugged coasts, dangerous whale sharks, fin keels falling off etc. Best folk stay in the Caribbean, Europe is too dangerous



Pete

Yes, but then Jedi seems to be afraid of a number of things, hence he would not need a gun.
Uups, now duck and run [emoji2088]

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Yes, but then Jedi seems to be afraid of a number of things, hence he would not need a gun.
Uups, now duck and run [emoji2088]

Actually, y’all seem not being able to read my posts, but TruDesign is not American, I am not American, I am highly critical around much of what ABYC stands for (but not their core principle of guiding builders towards safe installations) and I am highly in favor of TruDesign fittings and valves now that they fixed the problem they had with their small diameter valves/fittings.

I don’t joke around the core systems on boats that do actual cruising to undeveloped areas. The reason is common sense as well as seeing too many cruisers die during accidents that could have been avoided.

Guns? You go ahead and take them on bare handed

[Franziska]

I do know that TruDesign is not American, never said they would be sind I agree they are a good product. I use them myself.
Regarding guns, well Peter Blake did not fare well, did he.
Anyway as said before each has their own opinions on certain subjects. Let's just agree that we disagree on some and not start the 1001st argument on them.
Peace.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Franziska

I do know that TruDesign is not American, never said they would be sind I agree they are a good product. I use them myself.
Regarding guns, well Peter Blake did not fare well, did he.
Anyway as said before each has their own opinions on certain subjects. Let's just agree that we disagree on some and not start the 1001st argument on them.
Peace.

I know, but you start these, then write I shouldn’t reply on it… which I can, when what you write makes sense, but it doesn’t. You see, that’s not a matter of opinion but simply of how it is. When I recommend TruDesign then you could have written “sure, those are great” but instead you almost accuse me of favoring American made brands, which doesn’t make sense because these are all over Europe and made in New Zealand iirc.
And now you start another false myth about Blake… he got himself killed because his gun jammed. It jammed. I can assure you, my guns don’t jam, let’s hope they are never needed like my fire extinguishers, my first aid kit with tourniquets and more gruesome stuff, my emergency water and food supplies etc. But I’ll keep all these just in case, don’t you? Skip a couple? What would be your plan, call 911? Haha, sorry, couldn’t let you off the hook that quick

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

the Groco flanged adapter is very good: https://defender.com/en_us/groco-ibv...langed-adapter

Although I will never lose my respect for the real tapered-plug bronze seacocks, (as made by Spartan,) for use today the Groco adaptors mentioned by Jedi are really a top choice.
The ability to change-out valves or simply to cap-off the adaptor without disturbing the thru hull is a great feature.
No matter how strong any of the magic plastics are or claim to be, having bronze below the water adds peace of mind.
Whether there is a collar or not for lateral strength, the first time you go to unscrew a valve and the thru hull starts to rotate in the hull you'll understand why the Groco system is superior.
Oh, 5200 underwater.

[Franziska]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I know, but you start these, then write I shouldn’t reply on it… which I can, when what you write makes sense, but it doesn’t. You see, that’s not a matter of opinion but simply of how it is. When I recommend TruDesign then you could have written “sure, those are great” but instead you almost accuse me of favoring American made brands, which doesn’t make sense because these are all over Europe and made in New Zealand iirc.

And now you start another false myth about Blake… he got himself killed because his gun jammed. It jammed. I can assure you, my guns don’t jam, let’s hope they are never needed like my fire extinguishers, my first aid kit with tourniquets and more gruesome stuff, my emergency water and food supplies etc. But I’ll keep all these just in case, don’t you? Skip a couple? What would be your plan, call 911? Haha, sorry, couldn’t let you off the hook that quick [emoji3]

Pointless to continue this, isn't it?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Although I will never lose my respect for the real tapered-plug bronze seacocks, (as made by Spartan,) for use today the Groco adaptors mentioned by Jedi are really a top choice.
The ability to change-out valves or simply to cap-off the adaptor without disturbing the thru hull is a great feature.
No matter how strong any of the magic plastics are or claim to be, having bronze below the water adds peace of mind.
Whether there is a collar or not for lateral strength, the first time you go to unscrew a valve and the thru hull starts to rotate in the hull you'll understand why the Groco system is superior.
Oh, 5200 underwater.

The plastic thru hulls can be permanently bonded in place with polyester or epoxy (this is shown in the instructions) Since they typically need to be grounded off to replace anyway, it doesn't add too much more to the job if bonded in place. That at least eliminates your fear of them moving if the valve is removed.