My Rebuild-The REAL costs-Scare me now.

[cooper]

I have seen the hull cut open and a fork lift used to extract the engine! The point is the size of the engine. A direct lift means that even at the local yacht club, the cranes that lift etchels in and out can take your engine out.

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Let me give my reasons for providing a direct lift.

1. any lift method can do it.
2. A pole and a block and tackle( see pic) can allow you to do a gearbox change, engine mounts, or even a repaint under the engine.
3. The up and sideways is a pain in the arse.....it takes a huge amount of extra time and can be dangerous because you have to change lifts... and are relying on internal gear th whole time.
4. You can lift and swing a whole engine (as long as the weight is reasonable) from your boom.
5. If you can take a whole engine out in an hour you are far more likely to fix a problem before it becomes a total loss.
6. Providing a bolt down cover (even if it is in a coach roof) is way easier than being stuck later. We are not talking about quick release catches here . Seriously goobied sealant that will have to be cut through and bolts that may have to be sheared or ground off. Still way less work and more flexibility. Design for ease of work later.... Have you worked on a modern car lately? My truck (had since a teenager) has a fold down front !! (Toyota landcruiser ute) The point being I can suport the engine with a bit of fencing wire from a tree and get a few blokes to push the ute backwards and "heypresto" engine out.


I do understand that what i am advocating is do it yourself stuff . This is just my bent.....

[cooper]

27. yacht clubs have cranes that lift light keel boats in and out all the time . these boats weigh way more than an engine. A $50 dollar donation out of racing time is well received....have you checked a marina lift lately ?.....woops I think I said that already ...... ; )

..

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by cooper

27. yacht clubs have cranes that lift light keel boats in and out all the time . these boats weigh way more than an engine. A $50 dollar donation out of racing time is well received....have you checked a marina lift lately ?.....woops I think I said that already ...... ; )

..

Are you in reference to my post of # 27? (or Boracay). I'm actually in favour of having a removable roof Btw: nice pic's above.

Edit: I think you just did a typo, "27" instead of "7", sorry about the confusion of this post

[cooper]

No confusion... : ) I just pulled a number out of a hat to illustrate the ongoing....Not a typo....1, 2, miss a few 99, 100.
Nothing to do with anybody else. Sorry.

[john connell]

Exman,
Thanks for the research.You are spot on because I went around to my mates place who is offering me the Lister and got the manual off him.
It is a 46 hp.He still reckons the torque is the more important factor.
However the more I listen and ponder over what you and Borocay are advising it gets harder to discount going with a bigger motor.Not positive on the tonnage but it will probably be around at least 9-10
Still love the idea of the removable roof.Going to get me some advice on that issue.
Will also take DeepFrz's advice and get the Dave Gerr book.sounds good.

sctpc,
Strangely enough last week I took my partner up to Nelsons Bay for her birthday.whilst we there I dragged her all overe the marina looking at yachts.Saw a beauty( a 65ft hereshoff I think ) with one of the masts probably costing more than my whole boat.
Met a top bloke with a South Coast 36 fibreglass yacht and he had just repowered with a 54 hp Yanmar (which he lifted in with his boom at the marina in the water Cooper ) on his own.I was impressed by his ingenuity.

Borocay and Cooper,
Thanks for the ongoing advice
Great photos Cooper. What an install.!!
OK- You have a 38 ft steel hull -what weight is your hull and what hp is your motor.?

Anyone else want to kill off my 46 hp Lister install.?
Rather hear the "naysayers" now than the "told you so's" later.
Besides that I know 5/5ths of a flys poop about motors so give it to me straight.I want to do the motor install once and once only if possible.
.In 5 years time maybe I can be a smartarse and argue with you all with confidence

Regards
John.

[Whimsical]

Read a rule of thumb many years ago.
1 HP per ton to reach hull speed in calm conditions
3 HP per ton should be adequate for all conditions unless you were an American then you need 4 and a Texan even more.

Might be wise to get a better handle on the expected wieght, full fuel, water, supples and people and add a couple of tons for the inevitable collection of stuff.

Mike

[cooper]

OK- You have a 38 ft steel hull -what weight is your hull and what hp is your motor.?

build weight half tanks 9000 to 10 000kg...53 HP at 3000 rpm. isuzu Industrial...Cam based injectors. ( Not a single injector pump). Design speed 8.4 knots. Reality...hmmm maybee this is a bit more than mathematical hull speed but close enough to be possible with the extra grunt. Be dragging a ditch behind though.....

I will be on the lighter side to start with. Due to my redesign, I may have to increase the outboard weight to make the boat motion more comfortable. Given that it means adding extra fuel , water, or TOYS ..... I dont mind. As is all tankage is in the center line or keel. Ballast 3000 kg poured lead. whatashityjobthatwas..

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by cooper

I do understand that what i am advocating is do it yourself stuff . This is just my bent.....

That's one nice shiney looking engine You are obviously way more capable than me on the doing stuff yerself.....but that engine layout looks pretty much like mine. where working from above is often a PITA with a small cockpit sole.

If I had the choice I would trade easy lift out for better day to day (and at sea) access. although I would still want to be able to lift engine out without cutting holes in the boat!

[cooper]

agreed, that is why the access is also all round. My boat is a centre cockpit. All sides of the engine covers remove. Galley/heads/aft cabin,/walk through. In reality the business side is in the heads (by Choice). The fuel scrubber system/filters/injectors is above the heads /shower pan. If I leak diesel it goes into the pan. (not the bilge). The covers on each side are 1200 mm long. The basic engine is 570 mm plus stuff.....

I dont want to give the impression that lifting out is a click of the fingers. My steering station is also above. This means disconnecting hydraulic lines/re bleeding later...electrics etc....My reasoning is that it is possible. With a very small amount of "big stuff".
I cut the cockpit out of my other boat with a chain saw!!!! to do what I have built in with this one. It was a piece of anger inspired brilliance !

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by john connell

Exman,
Thanks for the research.You are spot on because I went around to my mates place who is offering me the Lister and got the manual off him.
It is a 46 hp.He still reckons the torque is the more important factor.
However the more I listen and ponder over what you and Borocay are advising it gets harder to discount going with a bigger motor.Not positive on the tonnage but it will probably be around at least 9-10

Am I correct about the engine weight? The site was UK so I assumed Long tons (but I could be wrong).

Your mate is correct, what's more important is the torque curve data (not the hp), the data hopefully is in your manual, it should read as rpm (& hp) per “lbs-ft” or “nm” (most probably “lbs-ft” because its an older engine). If you've noticed, all the old Gardners have low hp (& low rpm) but higher torque (& larger displacement).

I wouldn't throw away the idea of the cheaper engine just yet. Like I said, you really need to get the torque data & your displacement figures as close to accurate as possible.

From memory (& I could be wrong) the hp loss through the gearbox is about 3%, also there's hp loss with the alternators (& any other attached devices i.e. pump's) – of which the loss is dependent on their size & loading.

The following paragraph's is my understanding of “displacement”. It is only from the basics of what I've been taught (commercial tickets) & what I've further learnt from reading etc. Having said that, there's some people here with knowledge of NA (naval architecture) design (MidLandOne perhaps?), perhaps they can correct me if I'm wrong?

My understanding of “displacement” is the total mass of sea water that is displaced by the vessel when fully laden - not the weight of the vessel (incl its ballast & full tankage weight). Due to different vessel design's, two vessel's that have the same internal volume - may in-fact displace different amounts of sea water. Therefore, if we have two vessels of 40' - one is a full displacement with full keel & the other is light (or semi) displacement with a fin keel, then the fin keel will require less hp to go through the water (in clam conditions). However, the lighter fin keeler will have windage resistance issue's when the breeze picks up & will require more hp to keep speed.

So, asking someone else about their similar sized vessel may not be a good idea – because it may not give you an accurate displacement sum. The other point too, is that two similar length vessels of the same keel type may have different beams, different draft, different internal weight (stuff inside), different external weight (stuff outside), different lines, different thickness steel, different amount of bulkheads, frames & stringers etc etc. Without getting some original NA design data on your vessel, we don't know what it's accurate displacement will be.

Btw: sea water has a density of b/w 1.02 – 1.03 (depending on which ocean) of fresh water, therefore - each m3 of displacement will be b/w 1020 – 1030kgs (2248 – 2270 lbs).

Like I previously posted, an old rule of thumb was 2hp per ton of vessel displacement (1 US short ton is 907.2 kg (2,000 lbs)). Like Boracay posted, once you start needing extra hp in weather & to power other devices etc – then you'll need to seriously consider going to 4hp per ton. As an example, 15 metric tons = 16.53 US tons X 4hp = 66.12hp. Now, you could stick to the smaller hp engine & go slower – but you have to ask yourself what if you need the extra hp to get away from a lee shore or through a rip/current etc.

Finally, I'm not saying that the 46hp engine is no good, I'm saying let's get the torque data & the displacement data & see if it will match OK for your needs. If worse comes to worse, given you've already got a lot of tools, skills & location – maybe purchasing a reputable design for a smaller vessel (30' ish?), sourcing your own steel[1] & building it yourself (with the 46hp engine) might be a goer?

[1] I actually read once of a young bloke in the UK getting a Roberts design, sourcing his own steel (because it was cheaper) & having it cnc cut for him (this doesn't mean that you couldn't cut it yourself from the design patterns). Edit: a design may only take into account the weight, dimensions & hp of certain engines (but it may be altered?)

[john connell]

Exfishnz,

Thanks for your time and the well thought out and researched data.
In the meantime I am still thinking if it is 46 hp and the boat will weigh around 10 tonne finished it might still be worth using it.??
Will go and ask the crane guys who lifted it out if they can remember.
Seem to remember them sdaying around 9 ton but then I have stripped a lot of crapola out of it since then.
Someone in the forum gave me a calculation link for steel weight so maybe I can do my own calculations.

The data on the Lister motor says it weighs 880 lbs or 399 kgs.
This is what it says on the data sheet re hp.

BHP/KW
44.25/33.0 @2200 rpm
41.25/30.8 @2000 rpm
37.5/28.0 @1800 rpm
32.25/24.1 @1500 rpm

88.9lbf/inches square @1500rpm.

All double dutch to me so hope you can decipher-thanks.

Note: Sure it would not haver made any crossing records but this boat did have an old 2SE Yanmar engine- around 18-20 hp and apparently it motored fairly well with it.


Come on all you ginger beers ( engineers ). Throw in your degrees and come out swinging with engine size war stories. sure there must have been plenty of you who have encountered this problem.

However you have given me food for thought.I do have 15 sheets of 3000 x 1500 x 5 mm plate steel at hand and will only be using about 6 of them.Plenty of free other steel around me I have been told to take ( angle bar ,flat bar, etc )
Maybe I should build another boat side by side and be done with it.???
2 for the price of one effort.
Heck, I'm a bit of a thrillseeker -why not?
Hang 5- I'd best ask my better half first then the bank manager.HMMM!!

I better file that plan in the "NOT YET" file for now.

Tempting though.

Regards
John

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by john connell

Seem to remember them sdaying around 9 ton but then I have stripped a lot of crapola out of it since then.

Is the 9 ton figure the dry weight from the crane boys? (sounds a bit light, must've had a lot taken out/off of it?)

The data on the Lister motor says it weighs 880 lbs or 399 kgs.

OK, that sounds like the Long tons figure.

This is what it says on the data sheet re hp.

BHP/KW
44.25/33.0 @2200 rpm
41.25/30.8 @2000 rpm
37.5/28.0 @1800 rpm
32.25/24.1 @1500 rpm

88.9lbf/inches square @1500rpm.

This is good. Is there any more data on the torque, eg: does the manual list it also at other rpm's? (it's also useful to have this data at other rpm's) Is 1500rpm the peak?

Note: Sure it would not haver made any crossing records but this boat did have an old 2SE Yanmar engine- around 18-20 hp and apparently it motored fairly well with it.

That's actually a fair comment, but haven't you been talking about adding more steel etc?

[Weyalan]

Good to see your project moving forward, mate. I can't help with much, but can offer a few pointers (my boat is currently on the hard at one yard, the mast is at another, and my house looks like a marine spare partshop).

1. eBay is a really great source for cheap new marine parts, provided you do you research, and are prepared to wait.

2. Don't be afraid to purchase from on-line chandlerys overseas... I have been buying a bunch of stuff from a chandlery in Texas - they are usually significantly less than half the price of our local chandlery.

3. Until you start to get into some serious long distance offshore cruising, all you really need is a basic VHF radio. A small masthead aerial with decent quality co-ax cable will get you 20+ miles range. A spare "whip" type aerial to a mounting on the transom is a good idea as a back-up. If you want to get flash, a hand held VHF is a nice "toy" to have, but not essential. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get an HF at this stage. eBay is a good source for marine electronics. You should be able to ge a decent new VHF for around $200-250, and that is really all you need for now.

4. I think that a chart plotter is a great investment. You don't necessarily need to get a super whizz bang top-of-the-range model, any with a semi-decent screen resolution will be fine. Treat yourself to a electonic chip with the charts (C-map or equivalent) for your area, and you are good to go. I got a really nice colour chartpletter (Navman) for about $750 and a chart chip for a couple of hundred dollars (seach on-line for best prices).

5. Tip shops can bee a surprisingly good source of materials: timber, marine plywood, stainless bits and pieces, even sextants, propellors, etc.

6. I'm in Tasmania, so I bought a Muir anchor winch direct from the factory. They looked after me pretty well on the price - I havea 40' yacht that probably weighs about 8 tons and the winch to suit mine was a little over $2000

Dunno if any of the above, but anyway, good luck with your project.

[exfishnz]

Originally Posted by john connell

Someone in the forum gave me a calculation link for steel weight so maybe I can do my own calculations.

Weight Calculators - Weight of a Steel Plate - Chapel Steel

Steel plating weight:
1 sq ft of 2mm = 81.67 lbs = 37.04kg
1 sq ft of 3mm = 122.51 lbs = 55.57kg
1 sq ft of 4mm = 163.35 lbs = 74.09kg
1 sq ft of 5mm = 204.19 lbs = 92.61kg
1 sq ft of 6mm = 245.03 lbs = 111.59kg

1 m2 of 2mm = 879.15 lbs = 398.77kg
1 m2 of 3mm = 1318.73 lbs = 598.17kg
1 m2 of 4mm = 1758.31 lbs = 797.56kg
1 m2 of 5mm = 2197.89 lbs = 996.95kg
1 m2 of 6mm = 2637.47 lbs = 1196.34kg

Weight measurements:
1 Metric ton = 1,000 kg (2,204 lbs)
1 Short (US) ton = 907.2 kg (2,000 lbs)
1 Long (UK) ton = 1,016 kg (2,239 lbs)
1 lbs = 0.4535 kg
1 kg = 2.2046 lbs
1 ltr fresh water = 1kg
1 US gallon = 3.7854 ltrs
1 UK gallon = 4.545 ltrs
1 ltr diesel = 0.85kg (1.8739 lbs) (temperature dependant)
1 US gallon of diesel = 3.2172 kg (7.0926 lbs)
1 UK gallon of diesel = 3.8632 kg (8.5168 lbs)
1 ltr sea water = 1.03kg (1.02-1.03 ocean dependant)
1kg fully laden dry weight = 0.97kg sea water displaced

Metric tons fully laden dry weight > metric tons sea water displacement:
12.5 tons = 12.1 tons
15 tons = 14.5 tons
17.5 tons = 17 tons
20 tons = 19.4 tons

[trinescape]

hi john i have a 36 ft tri [timber and epoxy] i bought her as an un finished project although she was in the water she was just a shell i put her on the hard and it took me 18 months of working every week end and i took 3 months un paid leave to finish her off during this time i bought 2nd hand gear, primary winches and other small fittings if they were good quality and price but the major stuff i bought i was lucky enough being a carpenter to do all my own fit out and have a go at other trades i did all my own wiring and then had a sparky have a look at it same with my plumbing the only thing i didnt mess with was gas basically what i am saying is that if you can do the bulk of your work yourself then you have taken care of your greatest cost labour my boat costs came out to about $75k that included auto pilot wind gen hydraulic steer assoc deck rigging aluminium dingyand out board new out board for tri gas stove electric anchor winchand two pak paint job and alot more there will be times when you will question your sanity at taking on a project of this size and you will get your fair share of kockers about your ideas just think of being at anchor at some distant island it use to work for me hope this was helpfull regards andy