Marine surveyor liability. Opinions, please.

[fatherchronica]

The surveyor who surveyed my last two boats seemed competent 25 years ago on our Lancer 36 which we bought in a yard after it sank at the dock, but 4 years ago when he resurveyed our new to us Cape George 36, it was a weird experience. His survey, which was only available to us as a download was woefully inaccurate, even claiming our brand new Yanmar was an older other brand I don't recall right now. It was as if he mixed up two surveys. But to his credit? he stood by his survey and would not amend the full typed page of inaccuracies he presented. So, we sent a long letter, with maybe 20 pictures to our insurance company, to show that his survey was mostly worthless and their response was " oh we are familiar with that crazy MF" ( I paraphrase here). A couple of years ago I met a fellow living on his new to him trawler in a yard who said he had his boat surveyed by the same fellow and that pretty much everything was wrong, including he missed that the engine was near kaput. When he inquired of the surveyor " what up?" he was informed that said surveyor was no longer affiliated with any professional societies and was completely unresponsible for anything he wrote. The buyer inquired of a lawyer and was told it would be a bigger, less satisfying money hole than his boat to pursue any legal action. So, if you find a surveyor who sometimes lapses in and out of a dual persona that sounds and acts like a southern belle ( except for the facial hair) keep looking. Said surveyor works in 3 widely spaced states. That is his story, and I am sticking to it.

[MV Wanderlust]

Originally Posted by fatherchronica

The surveyor who surveyed my last two boats seemed competent 25 years ago on our Lancer 36 which we bought in a yard after it sank at the dock, but 4 years ago when he resurveyed our new to us Cape George 36, it was a weird experience. His survey, which was only available to us as a download was woefully inaccurate, even claiming our brand new Yanmar was an older other brand I don't recall right now. It was as if he mixed up two surveys. But to his credit? he stood by his survey and would not amend the full typed page of inaccuracies he presented. So, we sent a long letter, with maybe 20 pictures to our insurance company, to show that his survey was mostly worthless and their response was " oh we are familiar with that crazy MF" ( I paraphrase here). A couple of years ago I met a fellow living on his new to him trawler in a yard who said he had his boat surveyed by the same fellow and that pretty much everything was wrong, including he missed that the engine was near kaput. When he inquired of the surveyor " what up?" he was informed that said surveyor was no longer affiliated with any professional societies and was completely unresponsible for anything he wrote. The buyer inquired of a lawyer and was told it would be a bigger, less satisfying money hole than his boat to pursue any legal action. So, if you find a surveyor who sometimes lapses in and out of a dual persona that sounds and acts like a southern belle ( except for the facial hair) keep looking. Said surveyor works in 3 widely spaced states. That is his story, and I am sticking to it.

That's... freaking scary.

[MV Wanderlust]

Originally Posted by captd44

Maybe you should name the surveyor that isn't highly recommended so the next person isn't a victim? I've been very impressed by one out of many.

While I'm all about protecting my fellow boaters, I'm not comfortable with naming the surveyor.

[Tellie]

Even after all the Shakespeare I've read I have a really great lawyer. Some of his best consul when I felt the urge for action was "We can take it to court and chances are good you'll win. But you won't be happy with the results."

[rmesfo]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Here in Ontario, Small Claims Court can be up to $25k and costs only $85.00 to file.
What's the story in your jurisdiction ?

Small Claims court in your jurisdiction. In California, it is 10 grand and varies throughout the U.S. Minimal costs and no lawyers but you do have to make a good case. It is worth a shot as the surveyor may settle to avoid a judgement against him before it even goes to trial. The hard part is collecting and it may take some time but it depends on how aggrieved you are and how far you are willing to go.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by zboss

Good luck but I suspect that only proving gross negligence will get you anywhere - incompetence or simple mistakes need not apply.

This is the precise answer.

[DeadCiv]

I went to a seminar recently where this topic came up.

The presenter said that the only recourse was to contact the certification agency (AMS) and/or membership organization (SAMS, NAMS, etc) and complain to them. You will get no compensation, but it will be a black mark on the surveyor. Enough of them and he'll lose his certification/membership. (which sounds like what happened to the fellow a few posts up)

Which is why you should only use surveyors that are certified and registered.

Sorry that happened to you. That stinks.

[Boatguy30]

Surveying is mostly a scam. You pay your $2000 bucks and youre accredited.

There are a few fairly good surveyors I hear. Never met one myself

[Fence Man]

We had our last two surveys done by the same guy. First time around, he nailed it. Six years later he's booked a month or two out, and it was less than stellar. He missed the fresh water tankage by half, and a few other small errors. The only omission that cost me was the two stroke oil reservoir was not connected to the engine. The hose made a loop under the cowl, but never was plumbed into the engine mounted tank. He quickly corrected the things I had issue with, and even spotted some things that saved me from major repairs. I never mentioned the oil bit to him, but next time I see him I think I will.....Not because I want anything out of it, just so he has the information to use in the future. Everyone makes mistakes, but there is a big difference in a small omission or oversight and malicious incompetence. For the record, I'm worn out with the lawyer happy society we are living in, except for you happy lawyers here on the forum....I'm sure you are fine people.

[Capt Jerry]

I am a lawyer, and I like sv/illusion's advice.

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

This has come up before, both here and on other forums.

The short answer is the any surveyor, in any state, can and often is financially liable for damages due to an error or omission in survey.

If that wasn't the case, the entire insurance industry which underwriters people including marine and residential inspectors would be useless.

All marine surveyors carry E&O insurance specifically to cover them when they make dubious mistakes. Nothing in a survey agreement limits their liability.

This isn't legal advice but if you get it, any lawyer will agree.

If only that were undeniably true my (much) better half and I would be $35,000 wealthier today given our unfortunate experience in 2002. BTDT...

[Sea Life]

Not all marine surveyors carry E&O insurance. The other thing to consider is the time frame. He could speculate that the repair was done after his survey. Hard to prove I would imagine over a 2 year period, unless you had paperwork as to the original repair dated previous to your purchase.

[Panacea2183]

I've alway gotten a survey pre purchase, usually ins co requires it anyway.
That being said, your best bet is to follow behind him ask questions and why he is doing or not doing what he does.
Most of the time the checks involve turning it on if it works OK, no indication of condition. The report usually reads "serviceable" or inoperative. Doesn't tell you much. If your not familiar with boats and machinery your at the mercy of the surveyor. I've always found things after the purchase, but hey it's a boat.
Hope you resolve your situation, probably not worth the expense for the attny.

[hellosailor]

My friend Pollyanna says that section delaminated long after the first survey, so it was easy to spot in the second one but impossible to spot the first time around, before it came undone.

On the mainland, it might cost $25 to file a small claims proceeding but I think in Floridia it costs more than $300 to roll the same dice?

If the amount is more reasonable, file in small claims and see how you make out. Small claims courts (on the mainland) are known for ignoring things like "no liability" clauses, they are called "adhesion contracts" and many states will not allow them, because ONE party wrote the whole thing and there was no negotiating (contracting) involved.

Courts always roll the dice, the question is whether it is worth your time. And of course the surveyor has to ask whether it is worth HIS time to go to court, rather than just settle and be done.

Even if he doesn't think of a clever defense, like Pollyanna's idea.

[JPA Cate]

John Easley:

Presumably, the delamination had not yet occurred when the boat originally was surveyed for you. No way he or she can be held responsible for that, if it was sound at that time, and I think it was because he tapped all over the hull, by your report.

Ann