Lightweight, Non-Toxic, Good Looking and Relatively Inexpensive Panels?

[Chotu]

really thinking ahead a lot here to different areas of the boat I can work on based on the weather. One of them is being able to do some interior work before spring. immediately in the spring is running rigging. But before that I can do some interior.

I have spent a very, very long time trying to figure out what to do to make cabinetry, vanities, things like that.

I have done all sorts of analysis. Nothing is really perfect. Materials keep changing and times keep changing so I figured I would ask this one.

being really creative and thinking outside the box, does anyone have ideas for panels that would meet the following? this is all for interior cabinetry. Doesn’t get wet really.

*no polyester, vinylester or epoxy used in construction- glue, contact cement, etc ok
*extremely lightweight- think a piece of foam, doorskin plywood, etc
*attractive - I need to finish to be perfect. The cabinetry has to be exceptionally beautiful because I am not sanding down the eopxy interior of the hull to smooth the surface. I’m going to leave it rough and paint right over it. Kind of like when you see them do that at a Whole Foods or other brand new expensive store. The cabinetry and accessories are beautiful but it’s still the old industrial building. I’m using that kind of motif because I will be able to do it more easily without exposure to epoxy dust. it’s also extremely lightweight to do it that way.
* it would be nice if the materials also do not off gas toxic fumes for years
* Lastly, not being ridiculously expensive would be good as well

[rslifkin]

What about getting the thinnest plywood you can and using glue to laminate it over foam for stiffness? That would give an easy surface to finish, paint, etc.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

What about getting the thinnest plywood you can and using glue to laminate it over foam for stiffness? That would give an easy surface to finish, paint, etc.

could be nice. i’d say it’s a contender.

i have already experimented with putting formica over foam. It’s kind of light weight but i think i can do better. the annoying part is you have to use the non-solvent contact cement or glue with foams which takes forever to dry. would be nicer if you could use the fast drying regular contact cement. otherwise the work takes too long.

That probably should have been in my list as well. Fast.

[deltaten]

Cake?
Eat it?


Howzabout laminated doorskin/EP foam/door skin panels assembled with "white" glue? Simple, cheap-ish, easy and home shop power tool friendly. A bit fussy with joins and raw panel ends..
HTH

[s/v Jedi]

Lowe’s sells a hardwood 5mm plywood which a pretty facing and the back has primer. I don’t find it particularly strong, but it is cheap compared to alternatives. You will have to paint it all around.

For something a little stronger I use 6mm or 1/4” birch plywood from either Lowe’s or Home Depot. This is pretty good quality, more than good enough for cabinets etc. I use a stitch and glue with epoxy but you can do that with polyester or vinylester instead.

Both products give a fine finish when painted, but not good enough for varnish so you need to decide what kind of finish you want beforehand. If you want beautiful wood then you need veneer.

You can glue veneer onto plywood but also straight onto foam. The good foam, used as core material, is expensive. You can also use a plastic honeycomb core, i.e. Nida-core. This is much more affordable and has a scrim that makes use easy. You can bend it to shape, then put a single layer of light weight fiberglass on and with the resin still green the veneer.

For cabinets I would use the birch plywood, for seating the Nidacore. I use the cheap 5mm plywood for ceiling panels and the pod for my new breaker panels is made from the birch plywood.

For paint I use one coat of Totalboat 1-component primer and two coats of Rustoleum oil based paint. Everything rolled using high density foam mini rollers.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by deltaten

Cake?
Eat it?


Howzabout laminated doorskin/EP foam/door skin panels assembled with "white" glue? Simple, cheap-ish, easy and home shop power tool friendly. A bit fussy with joins and raw panel ends..
HTH

yes, everything I do is like that. Having cake and eating it too. ha ha I am huge on optimizing things and planning them before I do them. also, keeping things lightweight is of the utmost importance on this boat. Every pound counts. And it has since day one. that’s why I have a performance boat.

question about the white glue. If I make a big 4 x 8 panel won’t it to stay wet in the middle? also it takes days to dry doesn’t it? I could be completely off here. Not sure.

I think with any panel the ends and joins are going to be annoying. What I have to do is just drop some wood strips in to replace core where necessary.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Lowe’s sells a hardwood 5mm plywood which a pretty facing and the back has primer. I don’t find it particularly strong, but it is cheap compared to alternatives. You will have to paint it all around.

For something a little stronger I use 6mm or 1/4” birch plywood from either Lowe’s or Home Depot. This is pretty good quality, more than good enough for cabinets etc. I use a stitch and glue with epoxy but you can do that with polyester or vinylester instead.

Both products give a fine finish when painted, but not good enough for varnish so you need to decide what kind of finish you want beforehand. If you want beautiful wood then you need veneer.

You can glue veneer onto plywood but also straight onto foam. The good foam, used as core material, is expensive. You can also use a plastic honeycomb core, i.e. Nida-core. This is much more affordable and has a scrim that makes use easy. You can bend it to shape, then put a single layer of light weight fiberglass on and with the resin still green the veneer.

For cabinets I would use the birch plywood, for seating the Nidacore. I use the cheap 5mm plywood for ceiling panels and the pod for my new breaker panels is made from the birch plywood.

For paint I use one coat of Totalboat 1-component primer and two coats of Rustoleum oil based paint. Everything rolled using high density foam mini rollers.

I guess I have really tried at all. Ha ha. I have use this 5mm plywood from Lowes as well. it’s resistant to moisture. Fairly good stuff. I used it doing a stick frame type of cabinetry which I was not really happy with entirely. I used a high temperature hotmelt polyurethane glue gun and the glue has started to come free in a couple framing spots over the years. So that didn’t really work, but the plywood itself was definitely good. probably should have just used screws.

I think a nice glossy paint look is just fine. If it looks like formica when I’m done, that’s good. I don’t need perfect varnished wood. Maybe in one or two small spots as an accent, but that’s not the main look. Just picture a typical minimalist Scandinavian look. I prefer that.

good structural foam isn’t necessarily important for cabinetry. That’s basically for structural purposes. I have glued formica to bad foam and it works just as well. The only problem is like I was saying above you have to use a non-solvent type of glue or contact cement with bad foam or it dissolves. Epoxy works also but no. Lol. so it takes a really long time to make the panels because they take forever to dry since no solvent. Solvent melts the bad foam good foam/nidacore work with solvents

remember one of the points. No resins. No polyester, no vinylester, no epoxy. That stuff is all starting to affect me at this point. I get the worst headache and incredible amounts of mucus pouring out of my nose if I sniff a little polyester these days. It doesn’t do me well. And it’s winter. So I am closed up inside. I will do as much work as I can outside, but there will certainly be some interior air contamination. And I don’t want any of that. I need things that are non-toxic. Resins are just awful at this point for me.

I would assume since they affect me like that, they are just not good for anyone’s health even if it doesn’t affect you. So I am steering clear of those materials from now on. trying to make everything non-toxic in the living area.

The paint scheme sounds pretty good. I may try to shoot for a non-toxic paint that doesn’t give off a whole bunch of fumes as well.

that part of things is probably one of the most important parts. do you know how they put together nontoxic houses? I kind of want the boat to be like that. I plan to be in here a lot. So I don’t want to surround myself with toxins

[rslifkin]

If you do a wood stick frame cabinet, what about just mechanically fastening it and skipping the glue? That's how most of the cabinetry in my boat was built (screwed together) and it's held up for 38 years. You'd just have to optimize thickness of wood in various parts of the cabinet and the general design to avoid adding more weight than necessary.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you do a wood stick frame cabinet, what about just mechanically fastening it and skipping the glue? That's how most of the cabinetry in my boat was built (screwed together) and it's held up for 38 years. You'd just have to optimize thickness of wood in various parts of the cabinet and the general design to avoid adding more weight than necessary.

it’s tempting. it’s hard to know exactly how much support you need doing that.

The way I did the attempt at that before was using 1x2s and the 5mm plywood Jedi was talking about.

it was fairly light weight, but it didn’t feel completely secure. That really thin plywood needed a lot of framing. So I don’t think I had it right.

also, sometimes I think you can use more material doing the stick framing compared to if you used bulkheads of plywood inside a cabinet.

basically I think it takes a little bit of skill. And I don’t know that I have the proper skill yet. I don’t have the theory yet. I built a settee and the galley cabinetry out of that.

both have not performed as well as I wish they had. mostly because the hot melt polyester glue released in a couple areas. screws would eliminate that for sure.

and then there is weight. I’m not sure if the panel method using foam or something like that weighs less. Hard to tell because each stick frame thing is a one off. you never know how much framing reinforcement you are going to need in advance. You just have to keep adding it until it works.

I think the things I have built previously with stick frame weigh less than they would if they were done with any type of fiberglass over a core. that was why I chose it to begin with. I wanted something that was the lightest weight and didn’t cost a lot. And was kind of quick to put up. That’s another factor. It’s got to go up quickly. I can’t spend my whole life building a boat. That’s not what I want to do lol. so stick fame is good from the speed angle. with screws there is absolutely zero toxicity.

as for reliability, there is absolutely no doubt these are reliable. 38 years in your boat. And I have some that are probably approaching 10 years now. I built them early on so I could have a galley and a place to sit.

i’m still drawn to this method because it’s simple, zero toxicity, low cost, and really fast. It’s not really as annoying as working with panels also. It just wasn’t entirely successful and I didn’t really know how to plan out the cabinet very well. You know. The craft of cabinet building. Lol

[wholybee]

What about elmers white glue or a basic wood glue like titebond? It takes a long time to dry, but that is what the minimal mechanical fasteners are for, just to hold it until the glue dries. And/or clamps. It works with most materials, including foam.

I don't think anything is less toxic than white glue, preschool kids have been eating white glue for decades

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by wholybee

What about elmers white glue or a basic wood glue like titebond? It takes a long time to dry, but that is what the minimal mechanical fasteners are for, just to hold it until the glue dries. And/or clamps. It works with most materials, including foam.

I don't think anything is less toxic than white glue, preschool kids have been eating white glue for decades

ha ha ha ha ha! that’s true about preschool kids

that works pretty well for framing. What method are you suggesting? Stick framing with glue and minimal screws?

or are you suggesting making panels with it? foam?

I am wondering if I make a 4 x 8 panel will the glue ever dry in the middle of it? Doesn’t need exposure to the air to evaporate?

[s/v Jedi]

Okay… no resins… then I would skip core materials completely.

Let me think. First of all you can use Titebond III glue. It cures quickly, is waterproof and non toxic. I use this all the time.

You can also use superglue? Check this out, it is a thick glue and an activator for curing in seconds. I use the activator when I want to “tack weld” pieces together. If you can use this then you can do everything: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006IUWCC

Yes, hot glue… you need a professional gun that goes much hotter than consumer ones. The 5mm plywood will delaminate rather than the glue failing during my testing.

But you have no tools? No palm router even? I would say you need at least a track saw and a palm router. Those can easily be used aboard, I do the same.

With a palm router, you can route rebates and dados into frame structures that you can then glue plywood panels in. That way you can use hardwood frame that also gives you the wood trim to complement the painted surfaces.

I needed Jatoba wood as this is what the interior was build from. You can make your choice, but Jatoba is pretty good and pretty too. The way to buy this is as flooring from Lumber Liquidators, now LL-flooring or something. I had some lead time. You can cut it with the track saw, but I also resaw it for thinner pieces for which you need at least a small table saw so that’s difficult. I make slats for hull liner that way.
You can get many types of hardwood lumber from them. It comes in bundles of all different lengths, pretty handy actually.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay… no resins… then I would skip core materials completely.

Let me think. First of all you can use Titebond III glue. It cures quickly, is waterproof and non toxic. I use this all the time.

You can also use superglue? Check this out, it is a thick glue and an activator for curing in seconds. I use the activator when I want to “tack weld” pieces together. If you can use this then you can do everything: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006IUWCC

Yes, hot glue… you need a professional gun that goes much hotter than consumer ones. The 5mm plywood will delaminate rather than the glue failing during my testing.

But you have no tools? No palm router even? I would say you need at least a track saw and a palm router. Those can easily be used aboard, I do the same.

With a palm router, you can route rebates and dados into frame structures that you can then glue plywood panels in. That way you can use hardwood frame that also gives you the wood trim to complement the painted surfaces.

I needed Jatoba wood as this is what the interior was build from. You can make your choice, but Jatoba is pretty good and pretty too. The way to buy this is as flooring from Lumber Liquidators, now LL-flooring or something. I had some lead time. You can cut it with the track saw, but I also resaw it for thinner pieces for which you need at least a small table saw so that’s difficult. I make slats for hull liner that way.
You can get many types of hardwood lumber from them. It comes in bundles of all different lengths, pretty handy actually.

I feel like tightbond III is pretty much the same as Elmers. I know there are chemistry differences, but it definitely feels pretty non-toxic. I use it here and there when I don’t need something to dry quickly. That’s no problem.

No issues with superglue yet. Certainly the solvents stink but they go away.

I have a very expensive and professional hot melt polyurethane glue gun. The hot melt polyurethane failed in some framing spots and where the wood was subjected to unexpected moisture. In all likelihood, the wood surface failed, but it didn’t work 100%. Worked probably 98% of glue joins. also, my glue joints were not really professional. I should have had rebates in there and done it the way you are describing. I did not.

I have nearly every tool. i built a boat. I have 2 different routers. a big high power one you slide around on the material because it’s so heavy and a small handheld one like you’d do formica with. I also have all dremel accessories and variable speed dremels. I have a table saw, circular saw, jigsaw, keyhole hand saws, hack saws, etc etc.

Wow!!!! that’s what I needed to do with the cabinets. That’s what I did wrong.

making those rebates for the plywood to slide into. That’s what I should have done. I made a frame and then try to put the plywood around that so there were no seams. Minimalist. is there some other way to do this that would provide the minimalist look yet still go together easily and firmly like the way you are describing with the rebates and gluing?

Maybe I need to start watching some YouTube now. This is the time to use my bandwidth ha ha. Maybe I can find some ways to make minimalist Scandinavian cabinetry.

Also, that’s a really interesting product in the link.

[s/v Jedi]

Raw wood ceiling panels (the 5mm plywood) with Jatoba trim. The panels are actually sandwiched between two trim pieces that are screwed together.

The pod with breaker panels is from 1/4” birch plywood with the paint schedule I posted. This is much stronger.

The finished cabinets are the same Jatoba but just veneered.

Edit: the hull is raw fiberglass painted like you plan. I want Jatoba slats with 1/4” space in between which is why I painted the fiberglass light gray.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Raw wood ceiling panels (the 5mm plywood) with Jatoba trim. The panels are actually sandwiched between two trim pieces that are screwed together.

The pod with breaker panels is from 1/4” birch plywood with the paint schedule I posted. This is much stronger.

The finished cabinets are the same Jatoba but just veneered.

Edit: the hull is raw fiberglass painted like you plan. I want Jatoba slats with 1/4” space in between which is why I painted the fiberglass light gray.

hmmmmm. that’s not bad!

you have achieved a very clean look.

I think I need to research a little bit about how to do the cabinet faces and drawers and things like that. I believe that is part of where the minimalist Nordic or Scandinavian design comes in. It is derived from the faces, correct?