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03-09-2017, 19:22
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#46
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 8,462
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
I'm thinking to that with the leaking the structure of the cored deck was compromised and the added load of the new sails was to much. Perhaps with the core replaced and a proper epoxy annulus between the inner and outer deck you wouldn't have any problem. Maybe a few extra layers of cloth and epoxy underneath the deck for insurance.
So many builders make it almost impossible to properly maintain deck fittings forcing owners to almost dismantle the boat to correct the resulting faults.
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04-09-2017, 01:32
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#47
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz
I'm thinking to that with the leaking the structure of the cored deck was compromised and the added load of the new sails was to much. Perhaps with the core replaced and a proper epoxy annulus between the inner and outer deck you wouldn't have any problem. Maybe a few extra layers of cloth and epoxy underneath the deck for insurance.
So many builders make it almost impossible to properly maintain deck fittings forcing owners to almost dismantle the boat to correct the resulting faults.
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The deck is solid glass where the track is attached, so I don't think there are any core problems, but we shall see. The whole track will have to come off and yes, we'll have to do a lot of dismantling to get to the bottom of it. I'm not sure how we're going to get in a proper backing plate, but it is imperative. And then there will the other side . . . . It's going to be expensive
I like plastic boats for various reasons, but deck fittings and maintaining watertight integrity of the deck is one of the things I hate about this method of construction. Next boat will be metal.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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04-09-2017, 02:43
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
The deck is solid glass where the track is attached, so I don't think there are any core problems, but we shall see. The whole track will have to come off and yes, we'll have to do a lot of dismantling to get to the bottom of it. I'm not sure how we're going to get in a proper backing plate, but it is imperative. And then there will the other side . . . . It's going to be expensive
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Think about something along the lines of a G-10 plate, ground to match the contour of the deck's underside if needed. That or bed it in epoxy/chopped fibers bog. With a heavy overlay of Triax (or Biax) in epoxy on top of it.
Keep in mind too that a "backing plate" doesn't necessarily have to have all of it's beef/structure on the deck's underside. I say this because given that the deck is solid glass in that area, you can custom fabricate & bond a load spreader plate right onto the deck. Using the same materials as described above (or metal).
You can even oversize the plate on deck, & epoxy bond in the plate's fasteners, to connect it more solidly to a larger section of the deck (or through bolt them). This in addition to bonding the plate in place with epoxy. And or, fabricating a (custom molded) thicker pad wherever more beef is needed. Which, similar things can also be done for jib tracks.
You're just looking to spread the load over more of the structure. Below decks, above, or both. The block & tracks won't care nor notice either way.
If you post a few pics of the current block, as is, plus what's on the underside, & the amount of access there is. Especially of the structure where the load will be tied into, then it should be easy enough to offer up specifics & options on "the fix".
Keep in mind too, that if part of the reinforcement winds up being above decks/part of the deck, then you can incorporate a final layer of clear coated carbon fiber or kevlar to make it look sexy. Including if the reinforcements wrap over the gunwale & slightly onto the hull.
Note that all of the above can be done using stainless (or aluminum) plate too. And with stainless, you can even have a metal artisan add some gorgeous custom straw colors to it using a torch (& I don't mean flashlight). Such as a rainbow effect, from silver, to various hues of gold, all the way to purple.
One other KISS option is a Ropeye "fastener" or loop to connect the block to. Or something similar from Antal, etc. They're dirt simple to mount, & hold way, way more load than you'll ever apply to them.
Why build up the project into a Labor of Hercules in your mind, when you can have it be fun! And fun/sexy/pretty on the cheap, given a bit of creativity & thought.
PS: Why does the whole track need to come off? Pic's & an explanation please.
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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04-09-2017, 03:28
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#49
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
Think about something along the lines of a G-10 plate, ground to match the contour of the deck's underside if needed. That or bed it in epoxy/chopped fibers bog. With a heavy overlay of Triax (or Biax) in epoxy on top of it.
Keep in mind too that a "backing plate" doesn't necessarily have to have all of it's beef/structure on the deck's underside. I say this because given that the deck is solid glass in that area, you can custom fabricate & bond a load spreader plate right onto the deck. Using the same materials as described above (or metal).
You can even oversize the plate on deck, & epoxy bond in the plate's fasteners, to connect it more solidly to a larger section of the deck (or through bolt them). This in addition to bonding the plate in place with epoxy. And or, fabricating a (custom molded) thicker pad wherever more beef is needed. Which, similar things can also be done for jib tracks.
You're just looking to spread the load over more of the structure. Below decks, above, or both. The block & tracks won't care nor notice either way.
If you post a few pics of the current block, as is, plus what's on the underside, & the amount of access there is. Especially of the structure where the load will be tied into, then it should be easy enough to offer up specifics & options on "the fix".
Keep in mind too, that if part of the reinforcement winds up being above decks/part of the deck, then you can incorporate a final layer of clear coated carbon fiber or kevlar to make it look sexy. Including if the reinforcements wrap over the gunwale & slightly onto the hull.
Note that all of the above can be done using stainless (or aluminum) plate too. And with stainless, you can even have a metal artisan add some gorgeous custom straw colors to it using a torch (& I don't mean flashlight). Such as a rainbow effect, from silver, to various hues of gold, all the way to purple.
One other KISS option is a Ropeye "fastener" or loop to connect the block to. Or something similar from Antal, etc. They're dirt simple to mount, & hold way, way more load than you'll ever apply to them.
Why build up the project into a Labor of Hercules in your mind, when you can have it be fun! And fun/sexy/pretty on the cheap, given a bit of creativity & thought.
PS: Why does the whole track need to come off? Pic's & an explanation please.
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Thanks! Very useful and encouraging. Thanks for reminding me that it should be fun -- this is actually a key thought about all boat jobs. If you don't enjoy working on your boat, then you've chosen the wrong sport!
An inch of the track was broken off at the end where the block came out. I'll photograph it and post it later. I could leave it, because it doesn't do any functional harm, but I think I will replace the whole track to make it neater. And at the same time, get it perfectly bedded down.
The problem with the backing plate is that the underside of the deck is not flat at that place and is very hard to reach. The deck is reinforced to take the track loads, and it leaves only a kind of crevice for the nut and washer, and it's almost inaccessible even with a big hole cut in my aft shower enclosure.
I'm going to get professional help for this -- of course there are one or two guys in Cowes who understand something about deck hardware Most of them are busy building boats for Ben Ainslie's America's Cup campaign, but I reckon I can tear one of them away for a day or two.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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04-09-2017, 03:36
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#50
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
The deck is solid glass where the track is attached, so I don't think there are any core problems, but we shall see. The whole track will have to come off and yes, we'll have to do a lot of dismantling to get to the bottom of it. I'm not sure how we're going to get in a proper backing plate, but it is imperative. And then there will the other side . . . . It's going to be expensive
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I feel for you man. I'm at the tail end of a whole deck refit, at the start of which every piece of hardware came off the deck...except for the jib tracks. Being recessed into the deck, there is no core; the two skins come together and are reinforced with a few extra layers of glass. Given the fact that they were not leaking and each track is held down by @ 25 bolts, some of them hidden above bulkheads and cabinetry, I adopted the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude.
I used to marvel at how I could reach everything on this boat with relative ease. That was before removing around 300 bolts to get everything off the deck. That phase of the project alone was a long grind, with me muttering "Why the $@&% did they build it this way?" more times than I can count. Fortunately that was all about access and I was only more impressed with the robustness of construction than when I started.
I wonder if your track-end sheave was for a different purpose, maybe a screecher or similar.
If that is the only leak and there is no core, why pull the track(s) at all? You have a different sheeting solution that works and you should be able to remediate the leak with the tracks in place, no?
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04-09-2017, 04:33
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#51
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin
I feel for you man. I'm at the tail end of a whole deck refit, at the start of which every piece of hardware came off the deck...except for the jib tracks. Being recessed into the deck, there is no core; the two skins come together and are reinforced with a few extra layers of glass. Given the fact that they were not leaking and each track is held down by @ 25 bolts, some of them hidden above bulkheads and cabinetry, I adopted the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude.
I used to marvel at how I could reach everything on this boat with relative ease. That was before removing around 300 bolts to get everything off the deck. That phase of the project alone was a long grind, with me muttering "Why the $@&% did they build it this way?" more times than I can count. Fortunately that was all about access and I was only more impressed with the robustness of construction than when I started.
I wonder if your track-end sheave was for a different purpose, maybe a screecher or similar.
If that is the only leak and there is no core, why pull the track(s) at all? You have a different sheeting solution that works and you should be able to remediate the leak with the tracks in place, no?
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"Deck refit" -- just the words make me tremble
I sheet my blade jib using a new twing system, but I also have a 120% yankee which uses the old tracks, so I need to have them in serviceable condition. The sheave at the end is to lead the sheet from the forward moveable sheave on a remote controlled car, to the turning block which leads the sheet to the winch. It is needed for the standard 120% yankee.
So I'm going to bite the bullet and get all this back into good condition, over the winter.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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04-09-2017, 04:38
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Thanks! Very useful and encouraging. Thanks for reminding me that it should be fun -- this is actually a key thought about all boat jobs. If you don't enjoy working on your boat, then you've chosen the wrong sport!
More than happy to help with the POV thing Particularly given that with the wrong mindset working on boats sucks.
An inch of the track was broken off at the end where the block came out. I'll photograph it and post it later. I could leave it, because it doesn't do any functional harm, but I think I will replace the whole track to make it neater. And at the same time, get it perfectly bedded down.
The problem with the backing plate is that the underside of the deck is not flat at that place and is very hard to reach. The deck is reinforced to take the track loads, and it leaves only a kind of crevice for the nut and washer, and it's almost inaccessible even with a big hole cut in my aft shower enclosure.
This is where after prepping the surface for bonding, you put a coating of bog onto a G-10 plate, & literally stick it in place. It'll give the fastener a good surface to properly bear against.
I'm going to get professional help for this -- of course there are one or two guys in Cowes who understand something about deck hardware Most of them are busy building boats for Ben Ainslie's America's Cup campaign, but I reckon I can tear one of them away for a day or two.
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Yeah, seduce'em with beer & food. It usually works
Also, while I'm not suggesting that you do this, here's perhaps a better description of what I was trying to expain above.
Take a jib track for example. It's say 1.5" wide give or take. Imagine if you were to get a 4"-6" wide piece of thick G-10, & drill it for the fasteners for the track. Then flip it over, & based on where the holes are, mill out pockets around each hole, just big enough & deep enough for each nut. NOT fully through the plate.
After which, you drill a series of holes around the perimeter of the large G-10 plate, & corresponding holes in the deck to take fasteners on the same pattern. Then follow this by bolting the jib track to the plate, & the plate to the deck (with bedding compound). So that now the load from the jib track pulling upwards on the deck is spread out over an area easily 4x that of the track itself (or more).
Or, should you desire to, you could drill the holes for the jib track all of the way through both the plate & the deck. Ditto the ones through the plate around it's perimeter. And then bolt & bond the entire setup to the deck, using washers or backers underneath of the deck as per usual.
Either way you've vastly reduced the point loads on everything. Which in theory will allow the bedding compound used for the fasteners to live much, much longer without leaking.
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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23-04-2018, 09:56
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#53
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Boat: HR 37
Posts: 36
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Any final updates to your issue? I'm dealing with a leak that seems to be coming from the furthest aft through bolt on our Lewmar jib track. It's the same track as you mention, which has a channel for the thru-bolt heads to fit into the along the track, so none of them are visible on the outside of the track. The heads are then held secure and you tighten them individually below deck. We are fortunate to be able to have access to the whole length of track without more then removing the headliner.
I'm not clear if, and maybe you can assist, as to whether loosening the bolts below deck would truly give me the ability to "slide" the track forward to work on re-bedding just the aft thru-bolt that seems to be the source?
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24-04-2018, 03:30
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#54
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigidal
Any final updates to your issue? I'm dealing with a leak that seems to be coming from the furthest aft through bolt on our Lewmar jib track. It's the same track as you mention, which has a channel for the thru-bolt heads to fit into the along the track, so none of them are visible on the outside of the track. The heads are then held secure and you tighten them individually below deck. We are fortunate to be able to have access to the whole length of track without more then removing the headliner.
I'm not clear if, and maybe you can assist, as to whether loosening the bolts below deck would truly give me the ability to "slide" the track forward to work on re-bedding just the aft thru-bolt that seems to be the source?
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Yes, the cause of the leak presented itself when the aft jib lead sheet pulled right out of the deck, last summer
I sealed the hole with silicone and the leak disappeared instantly.
It took me less than 5 minutes to rig an alternate aft sheet lead with a low friction eye/dyneem strop through a cleat, and we kept on sailing.
Now the boat is on the hard and I have a good shipwright dealing with the problem.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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24-04-2018, 04:38
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Fiji Airways/ Lake Ontario
Boat: Legend 37.5, 1968 Alcort Sunfish, Avon 310
Posts: 2,749
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Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?
15 years ago I rebedded only the rear of a track (half assed way to do it) and it worked still good to this day.
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