Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-10-2016, 20:03   #31
Registered User
 
Panope's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Washington State
Boat: Colvin, Saugeen Witch (Aluminum), 34'
Posts: 2,269
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper View Post
Geeze Panope, he would need a boat like Thor to get her home from PT. The shortest way would be the NorthWest passage....hmmmmm.
True, and that trip home would not be such a bad thing.

But, Dockhead is just a short trip through the channel to the 'best ever' metal yacht builders.

Steve
Panope is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2016, 22:01   #32
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Here's an alternative, but ugly version of a fix for some leaks like this. As to how applicable it is, I can't say, not knowing the boat's construction in the areas in question. Nor the extent of the problem. But if it doesn't aid you, perhaps it'll help someone else... hopefully before a problem arises.

Firstly, tightening down all of the fasteners involved will only temporarily prevent FURTHER hardware movement. While it may appear to stem the leaks, it only serves to cover up their sins in the short run. As the real issues are:
What caused them/why are they there?
What damage have they done thus far?
What needs to be done both to seal them, & also to repair the damage which the leaks have already done?

Also, in your corner of the world, since winter doesn’t play nice. It would be wise to get them properly sorted out now, before any of the fluids which have leached into the various layers of your deck & cabin house get a chance to freeze. Thus causing more damage.

From the description you’ve written as to how some of the hardware is installed, it sounds as if some very highly loaded gear has been bolted directly on top of the teak decking, with the bolts going through the wood, & then the house/deck’s glass structure, with or without backing plates inside of the boat. And since wood compresses much easier than does fiberglass or aluminum, then over time, & due to thousands of cyclical loadings, it breaks down. As does the bedding compound between the teak & the decking, & the strata underneath of the teak.

It’s probable too that this has been accelerated by the fact that your floating jib leads are anchored to but a few points. Which makes the point loads created by their fasteners that much higher than If you had more conventional jib tracks with their multiplicity of fasteners.

Were it me, I’d thoroughly inspect how this hardware was attached, including taking pics. And then run the results by a few outside experts. As If the yard did them incorrectly when they put them in, then this may not be a simple wear & tear type situation. Since you did hire out this job to a supposed named yard of quality.


You can get a better idea of where the water is entering the inner skin of the boat by taking a water soluble marking pen, & drawing progressively tighter circles around the suspected water entry points. So that as water enters, it’ll create a “directional” path towards it’s source from where these concentric ink rings are broken.

Though if the leaks are truly as horrid as you describe, you’re going to need to determine which layers of your deck are wet, where, & how badly. Prior to undertaking any real repairs. Doing so most likely by using; moisture meters, tapping, thermal surveys, & core samples. Though the exact methods will depend both upon the surveyors, & the nature of the type of sandwich structure in your deck in that region. And getting out all of the moisture is fairly crucial to the long term integrity of the deck. As if the leaks are sealed up, but there’s still damp wood or cores in there somewhere…. You know what happens.


Back to the jib lead hardware attachment points. If my earlier guess was correct, in that said hardware is fastened directly through the teak, & bolted to the deck thusly.Instead of say, resting on solid fiberglass, aluminum, or G10 pads where it’s bolted to things. Then the teak where the footprints for this equipment is attached will likely need to be removed, & other pads of incompressible composition need to be inserted & bonded to the deck, prior to re-attaching the jib lead hardware. And of course this would need to be done in order to prevent further leaks after any work on the decking/deck coring is done.

IE; Fixing this is fixing the Cause of the problem, everything else is downstream (in the leak’s flow path), & the water inside of the boat is a symptom. Ditto on that evil, expensive, teak hue to the water.

Also, of course use correct bedding practices. Including backing plates to spread out large loads. For which (colored) G10 can be used, so as to match the surrounding cabin coloring. And it also holds threads quite well in lieu of nuts when mounting many items. To include threads cut so as not to go full depth through the material, thus leaving a seamless finish to one’s boats interior in the vicinity of stout deck hardware.

Edit: If you do wind up needing to pull out lots of through deck fasteners, it usually only makes sense to then re-drill them as part of the job, & fill them with a high density blend around the bolts. And, or, to bond the bolts in place with same, along with using the proper bedding compound where needed.


On cabinetry. Most is constructed with standard joints, which are held in place via glue & screws. With the screws commonly having wooden bungs set in place flush over their tops. So that taking apart furniture can be an art. Involving cutting narrow kerfs along glue joints, & gently driving in shims & putty knives into these kerfs in order to separate various panels which comprise things. After, of course, all of the fasteners & their bungs have been removed. Ditto on all bits of uber-confounding trim & covering bits. Let alone… Formica overlays. Ugh! Headliners are simple compared to much of that stuff!

PS: The other tricky bit about "cabinetry" is that much o it is bonded to the hull, & thus part of the boat's structure. Which makes removing & reinstalling it that much more "fun". So witness marks, measurments, photos, & notes on disassembly sequences are suggested. Including on the wiring & plumbing which runs through it.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2016, 01:05   #33
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Fixing deck hardware & decks can be a beast, especially if things either weren't installed right the first time, or fixed correctly the first time. As there can also be hidden structural cracking in the deck's composite bits, bulkhead attachments, hull to deck joints... & of course, cores. Both saturated, & or sheared. Ugh!
Forgot to mention those bits earlier.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2016, 03:27   #34
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Here's an alternative, but ugly version of a fix for some leaks like this. As to how applicable it is, I can't say, not knowing the boat's construction in the areas in question. Nor the extent of the problem. But if it doesn't aid you, perhaps it'll help someone else... hopefully before a problem arises.

Firstly, tightening down all of the fasteners involved will only temporarily prevent FURTHER hardware movement. While it may appear to stem the leaks, it only serves to cover up their sins in the short run. As the real issues are:
What caused them/why are they there?
What damage have they done thus far?
What needs to be done both to seal them, & also to repair the damage which the leaks have already done?

Also, in your corner of the world, since winter doesn’t play nice. It would be wise to get them properly sorted out now, before any of the fluids which have leached into the various layers of your deck & cabin house get a chance to freeze. Thus causing more damage.

From the description you’ve written as to how some of the hardware is installed, it sounds as if some very highly loaded gear has been bolted directly on top of the teak decking, with the bolts going through the wood, & then the house/deck’s glass structure, with or without backing plates inside of the boat. And since wood compresses much easier than does fiberglass or aluminum, then over time, & due to thousands of cyclical loadings, it breaks down. As does the bedding compound between the teak & the decking, & the strata underneath of the teak.

It’s probable too that this has been accelerated by the fact that your floating jib leads are anchored to but a few points. Which makes the point loads created by their fasteners that much higher than If you had more conventional jib tracks with their multiplicity of fasteners.

Were it me, I’d thoroughly inspect how this hardware was attached, including taking pics. And then run the results by a few outside experts. As If the yard did them incorrectly when they put them in, then this may not be a simple wear & tear type situation. Since you did hire out this job to a supposed named yard of quality.


You can get a better idea of where the water is entering the inner skin of the boat by taking a water soluble marking pen, & drawing progressively tighter circles around the suspected water entry points. So that as water enters, it’ll create a “directional” path towards it’s source from where these concentric ink rings are broken.

Though if the leaks are truly as horrid as you describe, you’re going to need to determine which layers of your deck are wet, where, & how badly. Prior to undertaking any real repairs. Doing so most likely by using; moisture meters, tapping, thermal surveys, & core samples. Though the exact methods will depend both upon the surveyors, & the nature of the type of sandwich structure in your deck in that region. And getting out all of the moisture is fairly crucial to the long term integrity of the deck. As if the leaks are sealed up, but there’s still damp wood or cores in there somewhere…. You know what happens.


Back to the jib lead hardware attachment points. If my earlier guess was correct, in that said hardware is fastened directly through the teak, & bolted to the deck thusly.Instead of say, resting on solid fiberglass, aluminum, or G10 pads where it’s bolted to things. Then the teak where the footprints for this equipment is attached will likely need to be removed, & other pads of incompressible composition need to be inserted & bonded to the deck, prior to re-attaching the jib lead hardware. And of course this would need to be done in order to prevent further leaks after any work on the decking/deck coring is done.

IE; Fixing this is fixing the Cause of the problem, everything else is downstream (in the leak’s flow path), & the water inside of the boat is a symptom. Ditto on that evil, expensive, teak hue to the water.

Also, of course use correct bedding practices. Including backing plates to spread out large loads. For which (colored) G10 can be used, so as to match the surrounding cabin coloring. And it also holds threads quite well in lieu of nuts when mounting many items. To include threads cut so as not to go full depth through the material, thus leaving a seamless finish to one’s boats interior in the vicinity of stout deck hardware.

Edit: If you do wind up needing to pull out lots of through deck fasteners, it usually only makes sense to then re-drill them as part of the job, & fill them with a high density blend around the bolts. And, or, to bond the bolts in place with same, along with using the proper bedding compound where needed.


On cabinetry. Most is constructed with standard joints, which are held in place via glue & screws. With the screws commonly having wooden bungs set in place flush over their tops. So that taking apart furniture can be an art. Involving cutting narrow kerfs along glue joints, & gently driving in shims & putty knives into these kerfs in order to separate various panels which comprise things. After, of course, all of the fasteners & their bungs have been removed. Ditto on all bits of uber-confounding trim & covering bits. Let alone… Formica overlays. Ugh! Headliners are simple compared to much of that stuff!

PS: The other tricky bit about "cabinetry" is that much o it is bonded to the hull, & thus part of the boat's structure. Which makes removing & reinstalling it that much more "fun". So witness marks, measurments, photos, & notes on disassembly sequences are suggested. Including on the wiring & plumbing which runs through it.
Thanks for taking the time to write this, which is very useful.

I am convinced by this, and by what others have written, that the track needs to come off, as horrible as that job will be. I might actually get professional help with this -- I have good shipwrights here in Cowes, and these things are not in my skill set. One advantage is that it means that it can be done while I'm in China -- and while the weather is still glorious as it is now.

On the structural details: the track is not bolted over teak, and the deck is solid here, not cored. The cabinetry in this boat is not top quality -- not Hinckley or Oyster quality -- but the structure is second to nothing I've ever seen, and these details are all done right. When the deck was molded, solid and very thick glass was left in all the places where anything structural would be bolted to it. The track is attached with a large number of 10mm studs, 17mm nuts, and washers, on about 4" centers. I don't really know why these would have worked loose, but I seriously doubt that there is any structural problem here, or any problem with the deck. Nevertheless, the bedding has been breached and so in any case, the track must come off. While it's off, I'll do a thorough inspection, and I'll also have some skilled pros look at it.

As to the bolts -- they are "captured sliding bolts", the heads of which are captured within the Lewmar Size 3 track.


Thanks to all for all the good advice.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2016, 05:41   #35
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Glad to help. Most of the above is long since seared onto my brain, & thus easy to recite.

As to getting things fixed, are you sure that you want to leave a project this big to be done unsupervised? And supervision need only be a once a day walk through, followed by a chat with the lead guy on the project. Since without question there will be things that come up which will need your input. And even more that would benefit from it if you're there to inspect & spot items of interest as things progress. Not to mention it being an opportunity to learn how the various bits fit together, & how to do more DIY work in the future.

Bottom line, I'd hate to see you spend 4-5 figures & not be happy with how things get done. Or any other manner of preventable issues. Though I've no idea the length of your trip, nor the level of communications that you'll have with the yard while gone. Perhaps you could have things disassembled prior to leaving, & 1st work out a plan A, & B for the fix prior to hopping onto the jet? Followed up by conferencing in regularly, possibly with video walk throughs at certain milestones while you're gone? Might be worth a think. Then again, that may be your plan already.
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2016, 06:32   #36
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Glad to help. Most of the above is long since seared onto my brain, & thus easy to recite.

As to getting things fixed, are you sure that you want to leave a project this big to be done unsupervised? And supervision need only be a once a day walk through, followed by a chat with the lead guy on the project. Since without question there will be things that come up which will need your input. And even more that would benefit from it if you're there to inspect & spot items of interest as things progress. Not to mention it being an opportunity to learn how the various bits fit together, & how to do more DIY work in the future.

Bottom line, I'd hate to see you spend 4-5 figures & not be happy with how things get done. Or any other manner of preventable issues. Though I've no idea the length of your trip, nor the level of communications that you'll have with the yard while gone. Perhaps you could have things disassembled prior to leaving, & 1st work out a plan A, & B for the fix prior to hopping onto the jet? Followed up by conferencing in regularly, possibly with video walk throughs at certain milestones while you're gone? Might be worth a think. Then again, that may be your plan already.
Also good advice. These are my long-time guys (Lallow's, a 150 year old boatyard -- History), and I trust them, but you're right -- it does make me nervous not to be here. Weather? Or personal presence? Ah, that is the question.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2016, 14:07   #37
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

I'm guessing that you got this sorted out? If so, what was done, & how?
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2016, 14:18   #38
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
I'm guessing that you got this sorted out? If so, what was done, & how?
It's not sorted, but the problem has been found.

The track was pulled up at the end, where the second block is.

I sawed up the cabinetry pretty good and cut a hole in my GRP shower enclosure

I tightened down the bolts as well as I could but was not able to get the crucial last one (aft-most one) before I had to leave to go to China. So I taped and caulked the joint and hope that it won't leak too much before I can get back to finish the job.

My plan is to tighten the last bolt and see if the track bedded reasonably. I doubt that it did, but the boat is not that old and all the bedding materials are good, so it could work.

If not, then the track comes out for a full rebedding, a nightmare job which I might hire out as I'm extremely busy in my business right now.

I'm back in Europe after China but won't be back in the UK for a couple more weeks, so the situation is frozen for a while.

Note that I took your earlier advice not to have it done in my absence; for which thanks.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2016, 14:28   #39
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Hopefully when it gets more of your attention it won't be overly difficult to solve. And especially, it won't hold any surprises!
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2016, 14:40   #40
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Hopefully when it gets more of your attention it won't be overly difficult to solve. And especially, it won't hold any surprises!
The Russians have a saying "Hope dies last!"


A full rebedding will take quite a lot more cabinet-chopping and will cost me some money, of which I don't really have any extra at the moment

Maybe getting the aft end of the track back in place will solve it.
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 16:50   #41
Registered User
 
DeepFrz's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 8,462
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Hi Dockhead, did you ever get this resolved?
DeepFrz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 17:25   #42
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepFrz View Post
Hi Dockhead, did you ever get this resolved?
Ha, funny you should ask.

As it turns out, the aft port side sheave of the jib car was ripped right out of the deck, sailing hard upwind in the middle of the Baltic a few weeks ago. It was this, held on by a single bolt, which had been leaking. Badly designed, and not characteristic for this boat, which is really good structurally in every other respect -- single bolt with a fairly small carriage washer and nothing else for backing. The high loads of the new carbon sails were too much for it.

I stopped up the hole with silicon caulk and covered that with duct tape, and haven't had a drop of leaking since. Rigged a low friction eye from a strop from a cleat to (perfectly) substitute the function -- lost less than 10 minutes of sailing.

A winter job will be to figure out the right way to put it back into the deck.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 17:34   #43
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

I don't understand...you mean the car pull up the track? How could the sheave of the jib car cause a leak unless it pulled up (part of) the track?

And yeah, duct tape. Gotta love it.
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 17:52   #44
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I don't understand...you mean the car pull up the track? How could the sheave of the jib car cause a leak unless it pulled up (part of) the track?

And yeah, duct tape. Gotta love it.
The jumbo Size 3 Lewmar tracks have one moving sheave on a car, and one fixed sheave at the aft end.

The fixed sheave has its own 10mm stud which goes through the track then through the deck. Unlike the moving sheave, it derives no strength from the track.

I'm eating my previous words about "structure is done right" -- it was NOT. The problem for the builder was that there was only a narrow space to put a backing plate, so only room for a washer, which is not enough for the tons of force this has to take.

I overstressed this sheave because with my blade jib, I'm not using the forward moveable sheave -- the sheet goes straight from the aft fixed sheave to my twing.

What I might do now is just not use the Lewmar track at all with the blade jib. The dyneema strop and low friction eye which I rigged temporarily works perfectly, and the lead angle between the turning block and twing is actually better.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2017, 18:57   #45
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,134
Re: Leaking Jib Car Track?

Sounds like the aft block is not intended to turn the sheet through much of an angle at all, and there you were putting the full load from the jib on it. Sounds as much operator error as structural deficiency !

Something that anyone could do!

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
jib

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dyneema Loops/Blocks as an Alternative to a Jib Car noelex 77 Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 52 20-12-2020 15:47
Jib Lead Car for Compact 27 Red- Knot Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 0 14-06-2011 14:43
Jib Car Setting Help Wanted ! JuanCH Monohull Sailboats 4 19-08-2010 17:47

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 19:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.