Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-11-2017, 09:59   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Casco Bay, ME and the Philippines
Boat: '90 Jeanneau Voyage 12.5
Posts: 59
keel hull joint image

Looking at this vessel, I was alarmed by the joint of the hull and keel. It's a 28 year bolt on keel. The owner insists it's superficial and just strip/seal it/double check the bolts as part of routine bottom prep this season. I wasn't so sure...

What's your hunch... appear sign of serious issue or likely superficial/common for the age and bolt ons?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	keel.jpg
Views:	1013
Size:	406.3 KB
ID:	159570  
sandrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2017, 10:31   #2
Registered User
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 8,854
Re: keel hull joint image

This looks like (from this singular photo) crap !

What is the thin line to the right? Almost looks like the edge of poorly applied glass tape.
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2017, 19:26   #3
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
Images: 52
Re: keel hull joint image

Cast iron bolt on keel with a recess instead of a stub, the seam is the least of its problems! Run don't walk, and in future remember, lead doesn't rust. JMHO!
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2017, 19:46   #4
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,140
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Cast iron bolt on keel with a recess instead of a stub, the seam is the least of its problems! Run don't walk, and in future remember, lead doesn't rust. JMHO!
As usual, I must agree with Minaret's (falsely) humble opinion! The whole aspect of that photo shows rather poor maintenance of the kinda vulnerable iron keel. The poorly faired glass on the hull smacks of a botched repair. The entire aspect is of a boat that would surely have other significant issues, those sorts that stem from poor maintenance and shabby practices.

I would avoid, myself. Soooo many boats for sale, no need to chose a cripple.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, back in Port Cygnet once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 10:12   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 96
Re: keel hull joint image

I'm amazed that such damning statements about the condition of a boat can be made from one photo of the keel, or am I missing something?

The owner's comments don't sound that unreasonable and surely it is better to see it like this, au Naturell, rather than with a fresh coat of paint where the original question probably wouldn't have been asked in the first place.

Good luck with your hunt anyway.
Perna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 10:39   #6
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
Images: 52
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
As usual, I must agree with Minaret's (falsely) humble opinion! The whole aspect of that photo shows rather poor maintenance of the kinda vulnerable iron keel. The poorly faired glass on the hull smacks of a botched repair. The entire aspect is of a boat that would surely have other significant issues, those sorts that stem from poor maintenance and shabby practices.

I would avoid, myself. Soooo many boats for sale, no need to chose a cripple.

Jim


With respect, to be fair, I'm not calling out this boat's relatively poor standard of maintenance, but it's design. And I'm pretty sure that's just a scratch not a glass seam. If in future the OP stays away from boats with visible rust on the underbody, he will be staying away from cast iron keels, was my point.

That said,

"The entire aspect is of a boat that would surely have other significant issues, those sorts that stem from poor maintenance and shabby practices."

Yep, I'd agree with that!
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 10:51   #7
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 10,625
Images: 54
Re: keel hull joint image

We are looking at a rusting steel hull here, right? I am not seeing a glass job anywhere in the shot.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 10:53   #8
Registered User
 
Boatyarddog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, Wa
Boat: 1979 Mariner Ketch 32-Hull 202
Posts: 1,234
Images: 2
Re: keel hull joint image

Being suspect, means being prudent.
Keel joints, should not have rust streaks.
The bigger problem is not wether you check the keel joint, if it's suspect.
You must, if your going to keep the boat, check this very important joint
The bigger problem is how much damage will the keel and boat sustain during removal.
Keel bolts break, usually it's no real problem to repair.
But your going to want to know.
And that costs time and money.
If you want to sail her for a few years it's probley ok for that time.
However, now it's yours...
Boatyarddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 10:55   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Casco Bay, ME and the Philippines
Boat: '90 Jeanneau Voyage 12.5
Posts: 59
Re: keel hull joint image

I try to sort out biases people have about design (not my question per se). I'm having a survey done and see what information/recommendation they provide. The primarily question that I'm trying to figure out between the survey and those who perhaps have seen very similar examples/worked on them is does it look like something that necessitates dropping the keel to investigate or just cosmetic and typical of the design, cast iron, and age?
sandrunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 11:02   #10
Registered User
 
Boatyarddog's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Olympia, Wa
Boat: 1979 Mariner Ketch 32-Hull 202
Posts: 1,234
Images: 2
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandrunner View Post
I try to sort out biases people have about design (not my question per se). I'm having a survey done and see what information/recommendation they provide. The primarily question that I'm trying to figure out between the survey and those who perhaps have seen very similar examples/worked on them is does it look like something that necessitates dropping the keel to investigate or just cosmetic and typical of the design, cast iron, and age?

Drop the Keel!!!
Boatyarddog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 15:03   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2007
Boat: GibSea 472
Posts: 482
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatyarddog View Post
Drop the Keel!!!
No No No!, don't drop the keel
Or at least try many things before.
Often, the rust is just there, on the joint, but not into the joint. Grinding the rust completly(sand blasting is even better!) and protect the metal with all the primers and protection required. On the hull keel joint itself, I've applied a bead of G Flex epoxy with long term success. I would not drop the keel unless there is evidence that a bolt is attaqued by water or water is seeping into the boat.
Elie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 15:07   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,981
Re: keel hull joint image

One can debate the difference between cast iron and lead keel but in the end it's a price thingy..cast iron is gobs cheaper. End of debate. Lead is better in many many ways but we are looking at an iron keel so no reason to discuss lead. Iron is used on all the newer high production boats and installed in a similar manner, no stub to create a bilge just bolt it on the bottom. Lecture over. When an iron keel is leaking rust from the keel hull joint it suggests that there is a very good chance that the sealant has failed and the top of the keel has been exposed and quite possibly the keel bolts...none of that is good. It can be repaired by dropping the keel and cleaning up the keel, sealing it and bedding it back into the hull. This also gives you an opportunity to check the bolts for corrosion. You can have rust on an iron keel almost anywhere without worrying very much except for the keel hull joint. Good luck!
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 15:39   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Boat: Boatless at the moment
Posts: 785
Re: keel hull joint image

I've worked on many Westerly's that had a similar look as that photo but they have short stubs that keel mates to.. However as Minaret said that keel appears to be in a slight recess which makes it more difficult to assess without some material removal. Will the owner allow that?

Now my opinion for what it's worth. You really need to see inside the hull for any signs of rusty water seepage and you need to see the joint more clearly from the outside to look for signs of expansion on the top of the keel. If either of those signs exist you should drop the keel, have it either sandblasted or needle scaled, painted with moisture cured urethane paint (3 coats) faired with epoxy and microballons and refit with 4200, lots of 4200.

If those above signs don't exist and your reasonable sure that the top of the keel is not rusting with expanding scaling, you still need to sandblast or needle scale the keel and seal and fair as before.

Putting another coat of copper based bottom paint on that keel is lipstick on a pig.

That's a scratch not fiberglass tape, but the bottom need to be stripped too but you didn't ask that.
kenbo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 18:04   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,008
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Cast iron bolt on keel with a recess instead of a stub, the seam is the least of its problems! Run don't walk, and in future remember, lead doesn't rust. JMHO!
I'll second the thought, with a little modification...

A cast iron keel CAN be maintained in pristine condition, as smooth and fair as fiberglass. I know I have one.

The boat pictured is what I would call "rough". Just looking at the condition of the keel and hull I know it is not a boat that is well maintained. The owner of this boat is not someone I would go to for advice on how to maintain a yacht. Whatever he is doing is inadequate to keep his boat from rusting away.

If you can look at a boat and you can tell by looking from 10 feet away the keel is cast iron-- even if the boat just came out of the water after 2 years for new bottom paint-- there is a problem that needs to be fixed.
billknny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2017, 23:42   #15
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
Images: 52
Re: keel hull joint image

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
I'll second the thought, with a little modification...

A cast iron keel CAN be maintained in pristine condition, as smooth and fair as fiberglass. I know I have one.

The boat pictured is what I would call "rough". Just looking at the condition of the keel and hull I know it is not a boat that is well maintained. The owner of this boat is not someone I would go to for advice on how to maintain a yacht. Whatever he is doing is inadequate to keep his boat from rusting away.

If you can look at a boat and you can tell by looking from 10 feet away the keel is cast iron-- even if the boat just came out of the water after 2 years for new bottom paint-- there is a problem that needs to be fixed.


Sure it can, it just requires much, much more maintenance to keep it that way. Which doesn't address my beef with an iron keel, which is that after having repaired many hundreds of broken boats, I wouldn't own one based strictly on the iron keels proclivity for transferring very high loads to internal structural members. Seen a great many lead keels after a severe hard grounding with only a big gouge in the lead and no other damage found after much inspection, including dropping the keel. Also seen far too many cases of iron keels with fairly light grounding ending with zero damage to the keel or bolts, but severe damage to internal structural members, engine alignment, and the hull itself. A big lump of lead is extremely effective at soaking up damage without transferring load, cast iron not so much. You might as well bolt a crow bar to the bottom of the boat. The longer the iron keel, the greater the lever arm, the more severe the effect. Hence the lack of a stub is bad. A recess makes this even worse; now you've inserted the crow bar into the hull!

Just because many modern boats are built like this doesn't make it any less true. It's common sense, really. A lead keel is like an airbag for your boat. It has many advantages, aside from the obvious one of more weight down lower making a better sailing vessel.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hull, keel

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keel to keel stub joint renovation Suijin Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 20-05-2016 12:33
2D Image to 2.D image danics OpenCPN 6 05-10-2014 07:34
Keel / Hull Joint sailorboy1 Construction, Maintenance & Refit 10 09-03-2010 15:27
Keel-Hull Joint Fairing GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 1 04-05-2003 12:23

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:09.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.