Island Packet Chainplate Replacement

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

You could, but that would be a complete redesign, not simple materials substitution, and therefore for just one boat, I think would be way more costly.
If the carbon plates penetrated the deck, you would still have the sealant issue from a leak in the boat issue as well.

The "standard" way for carbon is just to run carbon uni tape over a mandrel (mandrel above deck) and fan the tape down over the hull (pretty much like IP fanned eglass uni's). How much carbon to use is pretty well understood these days and can just be "rule of thumb" unless you are trying to save every gram. They are (typically) leak proof - full glass epoxy bond across the deck.

I remember the Ti machining at Ge aircraft engines factory when I did QA there - had to be very very careful, but made some really neat stuff.

[a64pilot]

The carbon would have to penetrate the teak cap rail, and I think the teak may be a primary source of the leaks as if it were solid glass, I think you could get a good seal that ought to last for years.
That teak is a source of problems for me, I don't know what to do about it.
I'm not one to varnish, and from the quote I got, I need another plan

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The carbon would have to penetrate the teak cap rail, and I think the teak may be a primary source of the leaks as if it were solid glass, I think you could get a good seal that ought to last for years.
That teak is a source of problems for me, I don't know what to do about it.
I'm not one to varnish, and from the quote I got, I need another plan

I think you could just pour thickened epoxy in to fill the gap. I don't think it would be all that difficult to do a conversion and permanently seal the hole. But i haven't heard about it being done yet. Just new builds.

[a64pilot]

I wasn't clear. By what to do about the teak, I mean what to do about varnishing the stuff.
I got an estimate of $9,000 to have it done while here, especially as it will last only about three years, that is way out of my budget.
I do not want to do it myself, I don't mind at all overhauling a Diesel engine etc., but I am not the one to do bright work.
I figure it's just either going to have to look after itself, or maybe if possible I'll get it painted.
As much as I do not want to do that, I cannot budget $3,000 a yr to keep my wood looking pretty.

I figure you can't just seal the pockets with epoxy, there is I assume some movement and epoxy isn't very flexible and it would soon leak.
I assume, if there were a permeant seal, surely it would have been done by many by now

[model 10]

There is UV stable aviation PRC. I don't understand why you don't see it in boatyards.

[JPA Cate]

A64pilot,

I don't know if it would fit for you and your good lady, but one possible solution to the caprail varnish situation is for either the two of you, or her, do the varnish, once, soon, before it gets daggy. It is easier then. One reasonable sanding, three coats of varnish. Some people find varnishing much more pleasant than say, housekeeping, which needs re-doing far more often! Even find it pleasantly meditative.

Once it has been varnished, then paint it. The reason is that the paint will last a lot longer than the varnish. It need not look bad. I have seen dove grey used, about the color of weathered teak, attractive to my eye; a golden brown color that fairly well matches varnished teak color, an excellent solution in the tropics; and one, in (of all things) a dark maroon, and it looked good on that boat. The idea is to paint, while the teak is freshly sealed, otherwise, you get pigment in the timber, and it looks not very good at all. It allows you or a different owner to take a heat gun or stripper and go back to bare wood at any time, to re-install varnish. It's a flexible solution. Maybe your daughter could do it during school vacation! Or, do it with you or Mom. Totally off the wall, but maybe you could pay either or both of your kids to do it, at minimum wage, not 9k.

That's only 76 feet of caprail. Had friends who worked on an 80 footer who hired people to do their caprail, every 6 months. I am surprised that anyone got 3 years out of varnish.

Ann

[Jim Cate]

Aww, lots of folks get three years out of their varnish. It just doesn't look so good for the last 30 months of those years!

Jim

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Aww, lots of folks get three years out of their varnish. It just doesn't look so good for the last 30 months of those years!

Jim

I consider anyone who does their wood every 3 years to be an overachiever. I think I last did anything to ours in 2010 and on a boat we don't own anymore. At that time I removed all of it and put it in a shed... might still be there I guess.

[CaptRory]

Frank, the failed one in the picture is not mine, they had all ready trashed mine and had the new ones in place when I got there, hence I have no pics of them coming out or personal knowledge of their condition. But I was told one side had little effect and one was much worse than the one shown and both back stays were also down for the count. The one in the picture is out of a 35 they were also working on. I believe these are the starboard side, the upside down full view most certainly is starboard, the visqueen visible at the end was masking off the galley from dust. Embree was very careful to protect everything from the massive dust generated from grinding them out.

[CaptRory]

a64 What was the result of your failure? What were you doing when it let go? I've heard of them failing with almost no strain on them and I assume as a result if that, no damage to the boat, and I have heard of them letting go under heavy loads and being dis-masted.[/QUOTE]
The failed chain plate assembly in the picture is not mine but came out of a 35. Mine had already been trashed but were indeed compromised. It was the backstay that actually failed on mine and looks much like the missing tang in the picture. My sea trial at purchase was in light air. After I bought her, I took her out in 25 knots plus gusts, with a good crew and pushed her hard right outside the marina, trying to break stuff. We put up all the sails and left her overpowered. I'm guessing you know the forces involved if you try to put an IP's rail in the water. When she tried to round up, I held her down and heard a pistol shot go off behind me and one of the backstays was hanging next to my head. THAT was when I first became aware of the issue. Up she went, down came the sails and I started my online education and calls to Bill B at the factory. They gave me the names of three shops they approved of in the area. I was in Punta Gorda then so they gave me Embree Marine, Sneed Island and one other that escapes me at the moment all in Tampa Bay area. I talked to a guy who had used Sneed and he was not happy with them. It appears that while they had done a good job on his repair, they also left a hatch open to the rain and were unapologetic about the mess they left him with. Embree Marine came in low bid by about a grand and did a great job replacing both sides and back stays for somewhere north of $6K. That was in early 2011. During that experience, I got to know St Pete, loved the place and moved my boat up there for summer condo mode and have been based there ever since.

[a64pilot]

Pics of the Ti chainplates, the business card is just for scale. They look honestly just like the grey plastic that model airplanes used to be made from, you know the static models you used to glue together.
When you pick one up, it's so light it feels like plastic, but tap it against metal and it rings like steel of course. The two threaded holes are for bonding, all IP chainplates are bonded.

[a64pilot]

Ann, the varnish, actually Cetol is fully knackered, has to be removed and start over.
I do think the painting route is the way we will go as it is reversible if it's over varnish.
I'll start another thread about where in the Caribbean to have varnish done as far as expense is concerned. I know S Fl is not the place.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Pics of the Ti chainplates,

Who did the welding and what kind of equipment did they use? Sounds like you spent a lot of money for parts that have welds with pinholes and was done with poor heat control. If you did this yourself it looks great but a pro should have done a much better job.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The carbon would have to penetrate the teak cap rail

If I were going to go the carbon approach . . . .I think I would just create a gap in the cap - cut say a foot off, nicely round the corners - could look very nice/professional, and have the carbon chainplates sitting in the gap.

On Silk, we just let our teak go grey while we were cruising, and sanded and varnished it just before we sold her. But that did allow the teak to wear more than if you varnish it once and paint it - that I think would be preferred if you plan to keep the boat a while.

Originally Posted by Guy

welding

I remember at aircraft engines we never ever used welds in loaded Ti parts (all machined). I believe harken is (still) the same on that. We also were very very careful with loads on stress risers like threaded parts - the Volvo boats had a string of failures on Ti threaded hydraulic ram shafts (for their swing keels). It is a good material used correctly, but has more delicate failure modes than steel.

[Frankly]

Look pretty good to me. That blasted surface ought to make for a good bond with the deck calk. I have some silpruf on a ham antenna feeding through my metal roof and it looks fine after 10 years in direct sun/ weather. Also the grey silpruf will match the titanium almost perfectly.


I kind of like the idea of varnish the teak and then paint over for a cruising boat (think I would use brown). Then when the ship returns to yacht status/ marina queen you can strip it off and get back on the bright work drill.