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Old 11-03-2021, 06:58   #76
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

If the coating has started to fail then it is best to remove it all and start over, for both varnish and cetol.

Its been my experience that blocking the boat properly so all water drains to the scuppers and does not sit against the railing for months evaporating and seeping, and covering it well is the best way to prevent water damage from the joints and underneath the bedding, over the winter. When the boat is in its element the water drains well usually. Only recently has this become an issue with our railing. Another reason to strip and start over with smiths epoxy.

Cetal may be more forgiving than varnish about lifting, but it sounds to me like it may be best to have all bedding joints well sealed or coat the entire piece if possible to prevent water intrusion and damage even with ceoal.

I would be interested in long term experience with cetol in this respect.
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Old 11-03-2021, 07:45   #77
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
If the coating has started to fail then it is best to remove it all and start over, for both varnish and cetol.

Its been my experience that blocking the boat properly so all water drains to the scuppers and does not sit against the railing for months evaporating and seeping, and covering it well is the best way to prevent water damage from the joints and underneath the bedding, over the winter. When the boat is in its element the water drains well usually. Only recently has this become an issue with our railing. Another reason to strip and start over with smiths epoxy.

Cetal may be more forgiving than varnish about lifting, but it sounds to me like it may be best to have all bedding joints well sealed or coat the entire piece if possible to prevent water intrusion and damage even with ceoal.

I would be interested in long term experience with cetol in this respect.
I coated with Cetol Natural and like the appearance of the coating.
After 5 years, any areas that were chipped or worn through started to turn dark.
So, maintainance coats are recommended.
As any coating is subject to this I'm not deterred from using it.
Sun will kill most any coating, so rail spats or covering it will save you a lot of bright work.
Show off your bright work.
Then cover it when your not on the boat.
SV Cloud Duster
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Old 11-03-2021, 18:34   #78
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

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Originally Posted by gonesail View Post
have you? what was your end result?
Sanding, sanding, sanding ....
End result was clean wood (slightly less than originally).
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Old 11-03-2021, 18:43   #79
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

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For outside teak, there are a lot of things that look better than Cetol, but none of them are as easy to apply and maintain as Cetol is.
Sums it up quite nicely I think.
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Old 11-03-2021, 18:53   #80
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

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Deks Olje can be obtained from Amazon; I am a a big fan of Owatrol products (used also for repainting my engine - not Deks Olje, of course).


https://www.amazon.com/Deks-Olje-D2-...s%2C254&sr=8-1
I used to use Deks Olje on teak, but it was only good for 6 months, if that. Since switching to Cetol, I can get away with a couple of years, then a quick sand, another two coats and another two years.

Deks Olje certainly looks great initially I have to say.
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Old 11-03-2021, 19:02   #81
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

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Originally Posted by Downeaster View Post
You may be right if the Cetol is maintained properly over time. In my case the Cetol and the Cetol Marine Gloss had degraded to the point where everything needed to be removed. I have certainly seen a lot of boats with Cetol/Cetol Gloss in bad condition so I don't think this is unusual.

My point (hypothesis) is that the base layer Cetol penetrated deep like an oil. Now to remove it is requiring a massive amount of sanding. It is just an observation and I wonder if the same is case with varnish.
That may be the difference. I just use the Cetol 'oil-varnish'. I don't go over it with the top coat gloss. So maintenance is just like maintaining oil - the difference being the Cetol lasts two years, not three months.
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Old 11-03-2021, 19:11   #82
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

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Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
David B wrote

This is inaccurate and misrepresents good marine varnishes characteristic's when properly applied.

We have always sanded, cleaned and coated our brightwork with 2 coats of varnish yearly, in the right conditions the second coat is hot coated with a very light sanding and alcohol wipe down, we have done this for over 16 years. The varnish has gotten so thick and has finally started yellowing so that it is time to strip it again.

The initial removal and prep is key. We made sure the teak was completely stripped, used teak cleaner that removed some of the oils, made sure it was dry, then used two coats of Smith's Epoxy, removing handrails and combing, coating all surfaces and injecting the rail to deck joint using plastic hypodermic needles to prevent water intrusion from underneath. The two coats of smith's epoxy saved us having to do about 5 coats of varnish, so we then put 4-5 (I've kind of forgotten) coats of varnish on for first season. It looked a little raw, but had good color. The next year's 2 coats we used finer sandpaper, now we use 320. Until recently we have had very few lifts and yellow areas.

Now I am going to have to learn how to use a heat gun again.
Well, I have seen a lot of flaking varnish in my time, but never flaking Cetol (seems many are using the top gloss, so that could be the difference - we are now so close to varnish, it doesn't matter).

I suggest you are getting to your varnish well before it starts to break down, and therefore not seeing flaking (but you sure have some work ahead of you now, with all those coats!).

Do a beautiful job with Cetol (no top gloss/varnish) and a beautiful job with varnish.

Leave them both out in the weather. The varnish will last longer than the Cetol, but will at some stage break down, flake, and need total removal.
The Cetol, will just slowly wash away just like a normal oil (but take three to four years to do it , rather than months as with oil).

Varnish without question can look better than Cetol, but Cetol done well, looks fine, and is much easier to maintain. That's my experience over many years
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Old 12-03-2021, 12:17   #83
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

David interesting point:
Leave them both out in the weather. The varnish will last longer than the Cetol, but will at some stage break down, flake, and need total removal.

But I have never tried to go more than 1 season with varnish without sanding and 2 coats. I guess that is why it has lasted so long 14-15 years. I was considering cetol this time. Still undecided.
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Old 12-03-2021, 19:59   #84
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

That would make sense, then if you are sanding and applying two new coats of varnish each year.

Cetol will certainly not give you anything like that finish, but it does last and is great for things such as toerails, deck grabrails etc. for a really slick, and deep finish, I use two-pack.
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Old 18-03-2021, 04:08   #85
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

Has anyone experienced the darker 'shadows' shown in this photo?

In the process of the LOT of sanding remove the penetrated old Cetol on this teak piece, the discolorations started to appear. Using a random orbital with 80 grit.

Maybe 'burn' marks from the sander? But additional light sanding these areas seemed to make them BIGGER. I tried oxalic acid (wood bleach) - but no effect. It is the strangest thing and very frustrating. I'm trying to achieve a nice even color across the piece because these shadows will definitely show through (confirmed on a test piece).

Any suggestions?
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Old 18-03-2021, 04:37   #86
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

Maybe let the wood stay in the sun a little and the disoloration will blend out? I wouldn't t continue sanding
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Old 18-03-2021, 10:27   #87
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

I think the sander in combination with loaded up sandpaper and pressure is at fault. Friction.


You could try a sharp cabinet scraper to remove a fine shaving. Put the power tool away.
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Old 19-03-2021, 03:40   #88
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

Hmm... yes, I can get my mind around the loaded sandpaper friction theory. That is probably it.

It's amazing. I just replaced my exhaust elbow and entire turbocharger and I thought that would be challenging. In reality it was easy compared to refinishing my cockpit table.
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Old 19-03-2021, 09:56   #89
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Re: Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

Its usually better to remove old finishes with a stripper or heat gun.
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