Is this the difference between Cetol and varnish?

[BugabooBlue]

Originally Posted by Eder

What a great head...and the table looks great in that spot.

Yeah, was safe place to apply without cat hair. Could be quite convenient though.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by Carlox

Are you rubbing very hard with the "tack" cloth? Those yellow home depot ones will doo that if you run hard they leave a waxy substances behind and your liquid pools a bit causing the "orange peel" look

I generally have abandoned the tack cloth, but vacuum and rub down with clean rags and alchohol to evaporate any moisture.

[Visarend]

Originally Posted by sailcrazy

While not as "glossy" as varnish or Cetol, there are other alternatives you may want to consider. Out Taswell 43 has a teak deck, caprails, hand rails, etc. And to protect the Teak from the high sun we had in Asia (10*-15*N) we used a product called Deks Ole.

Deks Olje can be obtained from Amazon; I am a a big fan of Owatrol products (used also for repainting my engine - not Deks Olje, of course).


https://www.amazon.com/Deks-Olje-D2-...s%2C254&sr=8-1

[MVDarlin]

Cetol has an undesirable orange tint that improves the UV protection but detracts from the final appearance. Use a quality carnish and have covers made. I have my bost maintained in Mexico. Last time the hand rails were done they removed them, stripped with heat gun and put 9 coats of Eppithanes varnish on. Beautiful.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by MVDarlin

Cetol has an undesirable orange tint that improves the UV protection but detracts from the final appearance. Use a quality carnish and have covers made. I have my bost maintained in Mexico. Last time the hand rails were done they removed them, stripped with heat gun and put 9 coats of Eppithanes varnish on. Beautiful.

The original Cetol has the orange tint, but the other, newer variants don't (and look much better as a result).

[SuW]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The original Cetol has the orange tint, but the other, newer variants don't (and look much better as a result).

Yeah, agreed. The OPs Cetol Natural Teak is a nice dark colour.

If you protect the wood with a canvas cover after the Cetol NT is fully dried it remains very dark. We have a teak plinth for the anchor windlass that we always cover up and it looks great!

If it is exposed to UV (even at our 45 deg. latitude) it goes gradually more orange. The wood underneath does also slightly bleach.

[Downeaster]

Original Poster here... First thank you all again for the amazing insights, tips, and suggestions. Incredibly helpful.

I'm slowing making my way through the project over the course of the winter and thought I would share a couple observations.

1. As others have mentioned, sanding between coats of Marine Gloss dramatically improves the finish of the final coat. The directions don't prohibit this - but they seem to lead you towards no sanding so I thought I would mention it again.

2. With Cetol, when doing a full refinish, you seem to really need to sand down really DEEP to get the previous application out of the wood. As you can see in the image, any residual is showing up clearly under the new treatment (here it is the 1st coat of Cetol Natural Teak). I didn't do enough here so its back to the sander. This was mentioned already, I think, but I thought I would put a spotlight on it. If varnish requires less sanding then that's a big plus in its favor in my opinion. Its a lot of work and, eventually, multiple refinishes will impact the thickness of the pieces.

[jdecris]

Originally Posted by Downeaster

Original Poster here... First thank you all again for the amazing insights, tips, and suggestions. Incredibly helpful.

I'm slowing making my way through the project over the course of the winter and thought I would share a couple observations.

1. As others have mentioned, sanding between coats of Marine Gloss dramatically improves the finish of the final coat. The directions don't prohibit this - but they seem to lead you towards no sanding so I thought I would mention it again.

2. With Cetol, when doing a full refinish, you seem to really need to sand down really DEEP to get the previous application out of the wood. As you can see in the image, any residual is showing up clearly under the new treatment (here it is the 1st coat of Cetol Natural Teak). I didn't do enough here so its back to the sander. This was mentioned already, I think, but I thought I would put a spotlight on it. If varnish requires less sanding then that's a big plus in its favor in my opinion. Its a lot of work and, eventually, multiple refinishes will impact the thickness of the pieces.

I've been using Cetol Natural Teak and the follow up Gloss for many years and on several boats. I get what I experience as excellent results - in the application process, in the finish, and in the standup to the elements of weather and time.

There are lots of factors that go into the mix - original surface prep, sanding between coats, etc.

A couple more "factors" that can influence the process and results are the environment around the work, the time between coats, and the amount of coats.

Time between coats is not simply determined in hours. Temperature, humidity, and the amount of prior coats are all pieces of the equation.

For instance, on early/initial coats, in warm dry weather, I may very well get two coats on in one day. On later/final coats, regardless of the great weather conditions, I would not ever do two coats a day. I might very well wait several days or more - the more coats, the more time needed between coats.

I mention this because of your comment about Cetol needing more sanding. It may have been that the Cetol needed more drying time. Or the sandpaper type and/or grit, or the time before recoating but after sanding, or the amount of Cetol applied on each/different coats, or...

In any case, I've found that any type of finish - varnish, Cetol, whatever - achieves the best results when the process is fluid and evolving, and mindful of as many factors as possible - some of which are not always so obvious. And yes, it's a lot of work.

[Downeaster]

Originally Posted by jdecris

.

I mention this because of your comment about Cetol needing more sanding. It may have been that the Cetol needed more drying time. Or the sandpaper type and/or grit, or the time before recoating but after sanding, or the amount of Cetol applied on each/different coats, or...

All you say makes sense, absolutely. But I was posing a different hypothesis/question which is that maybe Cetol penetrates deeper with pigment than varnish. Thus requiring deeper sanding to remove when doing a refinish. As my image shows, at least in this case, it isn't blending across areas which penetrated deeper than others. So I will have to sand even deeper to get all the old pigment out. And I've sanded that piece a lot already with a power sander.

[SuW]

Originally Posted by jdecris

I've been using Cetol Natural Teak and the follow up Gloss for many years and on several boats. I get what I experience as excellent results - in the application process, in the finish, and in the standup to the elements of weather and time.

There are lots of factors that go into the mix - original surface prep, sanding between coats, etc.

A couple more "factors" that can influence the process and results are the environment around the work, the time between coats, and the amount of coats.
...
In any case, I've found that any type of finish - varnish, Cetol, whatever - achieves the best results when the process is fluid and evolving, and mindful of as many factors as possible - some of which are not always so obvious. And yes, it's a lot of work.

Excellent comment!

Getting to know the product, reading the instructions and manufacturers literature, taking time, and above all, tackling a small project first will help.
The results from that will enable you to tune your technique.

(This goes for painting also. Paint a dinghy or someone else's boat first!)

[David B]

Originally Posted by Downeaster

Original Poster here... First thank you all again for the amazing insights, tips, and suggestions. Incredibly helpful.

I'm slowing making my way through the project over the course of the winter and thought I would share a couple observations.

1. As others have mentioned, sanding between coats of Marine Gloss dramatically improves the finish of the final coat. The directions don't prohibit this - but they seem to lead you towards no sanding so I thought I would mention it again.

2. With Cetol, when doing a full refinish, you seem to really need to sand down really DEEP to get the previous application out of the wood. As you can see in the image, any residual is showing up clearly under the new treatment (here it is the 1st coat of Cetol Natural Teak). I didn't do enough here so its back to the sander. This was mentioned already, I think, but I thought I would put a spotlight on it. If varnish requires less sanding then that's a big plus in its favor in my opinion. Its a lot of work and, eventually, multiple refinishes will impact the thickness of the pieces.

I don't understand that comment at all. Varnish needs to be completely removed once it starts to break down. Cetol, just slowly washes away - no sanding to remove it is required, but of course we don't want the timber going grey again, so every second year or so (when the surface starts to look 'dry'), I give the surface a wipe over with turpentine, a light sand, and another coat or two of Cetol.
Sure, you can lightly sand and re-coat varnish for a while, but the time comes when it must all be removed to start again.

[gonesail]

Originally Posted by David B

Tried removing two pack varnish? .

have you? what was your end result?

[rgleason]

David B wrote

Sure, you can lightly sand and re-coat varnish for a while, but the time comes when it must all be removed to start again. __________________

This is inaccurate and misrepresents good marine varnishes characteristic's when properly applied.

We have always sanded, cleaned and coated our brightwork with 2 coats of varnish yearly, in the right conditions the second coat is hot coated with a very light sanding and alcohol wipe down, we have done this for over 16 years. The varnish has gotten so thick and has finally started yellowing so that it is time to strip it again.

The initial removal and prep is key. We made sure the teak was completely stripped, used teak cleaner that removed some of the oils, made sure it was dry, then used two coats of Smith's Epoxy, removing handrails and combing, coating all surfaces and injecting the rail to deck joint using plastic hypodermic needles to prevent water intrusion from underneath. The two coats of smith's epoxy saved us having to do about 5 coats of varnish, so we then put 4-5 (I've kind of forgotten) coats of varnish on for first season. It looked a little raw, but had good color. The next year's 2 coats we used finer sandpaper, now we use 320. Until recently we have had very few lifts and yellow areas.

Now I am going to have to learn how to use a heat gun again.

[Downeaster]

Originally Posted by David B

I don't understand that comment at all. Varnish needs to be completely removed once it starts to break down. Cetol, just slowly washes away - no sanding to remove it is required, but of course we don't want the timber going grey again, so every second year or so (when the surface starts to look 'dry'), I give the surface a wipe over with turpentine, a light sand, and another coat or two of Cetol.
Sure, you can lightly sand and re-coat varnish for a while, but the time comes when it must all be removed to start again.

You may be right if the Cetol is maintained properly over time. In my case the Cetol and the Cetol Marine Gloss had degraded to the point where everything needed to be removed. I have certainly seen a lot of boats with Cetol/Cetol Gloss in bad condition so I don't think this is unusual.

My point (hypothesis) is that the base layer Cetol penetrated deep like an oil. Now to remove it is requiring a massive amount of sanding. It is just an observation and I wonder if the same is case with varnish.

[rslifkin]

In my experience, Cetol fails in 2 ways. Either from the top down due to lack of maintenance coats, or from the bottom up when something allows a crack or water to get under an edge. In either case, once it starts to fail, it's time to strip it.