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Old 09-07-2020, 13:46   #1
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Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Working on the interior of a 70's owner-assembled sailboat.

Previous owner filled berths with EPS (Styrofoam) and glassed tops to hull.
Mice chewed and pooped aplenty before I bought the boat.
I tore everything out including cutting 32 feet of 3" tape on the hull to berth seams and now am beginning the 'fables of the reconstruction'

I rebuilt the side berths with hatches and planning to glass and screw them same as PO did before. I have resigned myself that my work will be 'functional' but not 'pretty' , just trying to get it in water for use rather than a brass and hardwood type renovation. I have some questions to ask that more or less indicate whether I can get materials at a big-box store or need to make a field trip to a chandler's or a composites supplier.:

1. 40+ year old Polyester resin GRP boat. OK to use 3" FG tape and more PE resin to attach tops to hull? Better to use vinylester or epoxy as a repair resin?

2. OK to use an exterior rated construction adhesive to prevent resin drain at hull/berth joint and to help adhere berth to red framing members of boat?

3. OK to use a waterborne enamel (durable exterior, porch type paint) to paint seating areas?

Trying not to overdo or underdo needed repairs.

Thanks for the input!
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Old 09-07-2020, 13:57   #2
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

I would use an oil based paint- Lowes and Home Depot both carry Rustoleum
marine paint. (about $17 a qt) Polyester resin should be fine although I'm sure someone will say epoxy is better. (at 3 or 4 times the cost)
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Old 09-07-2020, 14:17   #3
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

That project looks like lots of fun, enjoy.

The hull / berth joint is going to be very squeaky, with every flex of the hull. Why not glass a wooden support strip to the hull, then screw the berth platform to that strip? That should improve the rigidity and greatly decrease the audible flexing noise.

It is always good to start painting bare surfaces w/ an appropriate primer before the top coat.
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Old 09-07-2020, 17:57   #4
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Good ideas, thanks!

I have some epoxy and I have some polyester resin so I could use either. If vinylester was a clear winner I would need to fetch some.

I primered the 'insides' already in case I got excited and started fastening things together. That was a with a can of waterborne I bought last year intended for this. Same with the screws and framing lumber, all aged a midwest winter before install.

Had the boat had the removable hatches I would have not needed to redo all this. Had I thought more carefully I could have probably cut the hatches into the old berths and added the frames. Live and learn...

I thought about gluing a combing to the hull for the berth to rest on but cutting the angles and kerfing it to bend seemed like a whole 'thing', as my kids would say when they deem something is too much work. In the v-berth there are small wooden blocks they used to hold the ply in place before they glassed it. I never sailed this one before the teardown to know if the original interior was 'creaky'.
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Old 09-07-2020, 18:26   #5
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

YW

A sliding T bevel is an essential tool for a project like this, to pick up angles for fabricating parts.
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Old 09-07-2020, 19:53   #6
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingless View Post
YW

A sliding T bevel is an essential tool for a project like this, to pick up angles for fabricating parts.

TY


Wait, I get to buy a new tool if I bevel some blocking on he hull? Sign me up!
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Old 10-07-2020, 05:35   #7
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

This topic shows where I used a sliding T bevel to pick up the hull angles to make the compound angle cuts for my elevated anchor locker platform.
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:33   #8
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Very nice Wingless.


I have been struggling to mark the line for the plywood. I have been using a piece of 1x2 to span the red vertical framing members (keelsons?) to determine the plane of the plywood. To determine the angle of the blocking I imagine I'd be doing the same thing along with the sliding t bevel. Water and fish are for illustration purposes only, work is being performed on the trailer in the driveway.


Local big box does not carry anything in marine paint other than spar varnish and a tube of caulk, both which I already have or have used. They have some of the Rustoleum Marine on clearance but it would be a couple 50 mile drives to get them from different stores.


Wind is supposed to be 13mph today, rain tomorrow, might be sailing instead of working....
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Old 10-07-2020, 07:57   #9
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Determine up front what needs to be "perfect" and what needs to be good enough / sturdy. Limit the "perfect" to exterior visible surfaces that won't / can't be covered w/ trim molding.

Keelson appears to be perpendicular to hull in wooden boat, as-shown in link. Didn't look up the correct name.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/04...g?v=1531492734

Correct to conclude that red parts exist and template for blue or for yellow must be created to permit fabrication? If so, use temporary aids, such as wood or cardboard to support template. Note that those red parts need perpendicular parts for strength.

My canvas and other projects have been very successful using thick "clear" plastic sheeting and a Sharpie for my templates. Here are some examples:

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4431/...c664c3ff_b.jpg
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/...5f9894f4_b.jpg

As an example, that plastic could be stapled to a nearby temporary or permanent support, stretched to position, then marked w/ a Sharpie to create a template. A cardboard part could be cut from the template for verification, then tweaked as required before cutting wood.

This cardboard template was created from an initial plastic template.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...a6a24dac_b.jpg
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Old 10-07-2020, 09:58   #10
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Lowes has marine paint, even in ohio...
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Old 10-07-2020, 10:13   #11
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Here's a paint I would recommend for any area of the boat that mike attract mold or mildew.

ZINSSER® PERMA-WHITE® Mold & Mildew-Proof™* Exterior Paint

We've used the interior grade inside our Catamaran and it stopped mildew.
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Old 11-07-2020, 07:03   #12
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Thanks for all the tips on patterns and paint.

I did find the sliding T-bevel, a whopping 3 USD for the ''made in USA' one and 2.50 for the 'import'. I contemplated some sort of simple laser for lining things up but realized it would be single project overkill. As far as the side berths go I am done patterning, used cardboard as shown, but want to try the bevel gauge on some hull combing. I still will have the v-berth and galley risers (box for sink and stove) to do.

Lowes is about as far away as West Marine and the stores that are discontinuing Rustoleum Marine. My local big box is 'Menards' and has the standard Rustoleum, some of it tintable, for 28 USD a gallon or 12 USD a quart. They have 1 quart of white topside too, I did not come home with it. I need to plan a color scheme before buying paint, nothing struck me as 'look at me, love me, buy me...' at the store.

We used to use the alcohol based Zinsser to prime popcorn ceilings and stop stains back in my painting days. I painted for a living, have all the tools and toys from brush, roller, spray gun, airless, and even airbrush...but I also have a loathing for it as well. I can avoid painting for years. However, once I open the can I can paint all day long.

I am leaning towards finishing the installs and then finishing the paint so my indecision with color does not impede progress.

I tried sailing the dinghy yesterday, got my backside handed to me trying to launch into wind and waves. Flogged a small hole bigger on the sail, broke the tab that keeps the rudder from popping out of the gudgeons, and after abandoning sailing, rowed 30-40 feet only to have a clamp-on oarlock fail at the large pin.

Again, thanks for the input.
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Old 13-07-2020, 19:46   #13
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

having done my own work, I've tried both epoxy and PE resin.
epoxy is by far more costly and you can't change the rate of reaction beyond ambient temperature (resin and harder is in a set ratio, you CAN'T change the ratio to change reaction speed; if you change the ratio, you affect the strength of the bond). Yes, PE resin isn't as strong and I always got that reaction when I asked PE vs Epoxy. But, you aren't building a battleship, it is VERY strong. Make SURE you remove wax and/or sand properly for good adherence to what's already there (even if you can't see/feel the wax layer, it is there and will wreck havoc for either epoxy or PE resin). The advantage of PE is that it requires a catalysis, so you can change the amount to adjust the speed of reaction, which is good when it is really hot outside and you need more time. If the reaction is too slow and you are working on a surface that isn't horizontal, then you get the resin to run/drip. I find epoxy is fool-proof, works all the time, every time. PE resin can't be a little bit of a challenge to get the catalysis ratio correct and you have to have your final layer with wax or it wont cure fully (oxygen inhibits curing). What I do, I use unwaxed to layer up the glass and come back after an hour to see how things look. If there is a problem -as it hasn't fully cured, it is easy to fix; if it looks good, I paint on a final layer of waxed gel coat (gel coat is just PE resin with colour pigment, you can add wax and pigment to your resin if you don't want to buy gel coat). Finally, look at your fiberglass, if you are using chopstrand, in NA, the chop strand available to us is 'glued' together with a styrene binder so you really need PE resin to get it to wet up properly, if you try epoxy on chop strand, it just doesn't soak up the resin properly and will then be weaker. Of course, if you use matt fiberglass, Epoxy and PE resin works equally well. I haven't used chop strand in other countries, but I know it can also be stitched together rather than glued (if it is stitched, epoxy and PE will work equally well). In the end, I messed up a few of my PE applications and lost time but with experience, I now generally use PE resin as it is much cheaper and easy to manipulate the reaction time.
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Old 13-07-2020, 20:32   #14
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Thanks Shoeless, a very nice write-up.

I have slung several gallons of epoxy but only a couple quarts of PE resin.
I would be considered a 'lightweight' in terms of composites as I do not deal with roving, stitched, chopped strand mat, gel coats, or chopper guns. Normally my stuff is 4 to 6oz E-glass and maybe some 3K carbon fiber on the sections that need more 'oomph', all done in epoxy, over various core materials, some vacuum bagged.

Since I do not have surfacing agent, either I would have to deal with the air-inhibited PE by getting some wax+styrene or by rigging up some wax paper or plastic film to perform that 'keep air off the resin' function or just leave it sticky and coat it with paint like the previous owner probably did...

My plan for the berth to hull joint was 3" x 6oz tape with some sort of bead of adhesive/sealant to keep the resin from draining through the joints. Wingless is talking me into some combing, I am thinking at least under the galley sections and the main place people will sit aft of the galley sections. Back where people cannot sit or stand it seems overkill.

Rainy here tomorrow, probably try again day after tomorrow. Temps are 85F/27C during the day so my epoxy does pretty well and one is 'slower' if I need it.
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Old 13-07-2020, 20:47   #15
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Re: Interior refit 1970's kit sailboat questions

Hello,
The wax+styrene is pretty cheap. The one time I forgot to put wax in the resin and I didn't want to put on gel coat, I just diluted the air dry (which is just wax and styrene) with some styrene (after all, the wax in the PE is only around 5% in the end so I figure I could dilute the concentrate 10x and be effective). I then painted on the diluted wax/stryene mix and it worked perfectly. There are other things you can buy at the store to block the oxygen but the store was a 90min round trip and I wanted to make progress that day. I had thought of your idea of using plastic, I just haven't tired it yet but now that you bring it up, I might give it a test run this weekend.
As for the fiberglass, I'm assuming you are doing more than one layer? I've used 3 layers in the past, one layer can be a little wimpy.
I've also done a time reaction between the 'fast' and 'slow' epoxy harder - well, I didn't see a difference in reaction time. Albeit, I let a small sample harden as a blob so maybe reaction temperature erased any difference in hardening time that would have been apparent if it was a thin layer.

cheers,
Jeremy
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