Insurance--DIY fixes that your insurance might not like

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Paul L

So it was just one of the items that had to be fixed prior to the policy being written.
More interesting would be some examples you might have where a claim was denied due to some out of spec part or implementation.

Not sure what you mean. Could you expand.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The initial outlay is already sunk money (in the accounting sense, not nautical). The rest is just a business marketing decision.

At what price would you purchase a membership and at that price how many new members would join ?

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Fiveslide

Yes, e11 and e09 are downloadable from multiple sources and vendors with permission, reputable marine retailers.

I should clarify, these are what I kept on my phone as that was what I was doing, instrument upgrade and installs to those standards. The others are out there, like everything else on the net, legal or not.

I can get any city building code I want for free. Can anyone explain why it should cost anything or be illegal to see marine construction standards that we should all be following?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I can get any city building code I want for free. Can anyone explain why it should cost anything or be illegal to see marine construction standards that we should all be following?

Those are paid for by property taxes.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not sure what you mean. Could you expand.

I think his question is that same as that I asked to start the thread:


Concrete examples of DIY mistakes or poor maintenance that caused an actual claim to be denied. The boat sank and the insurance company said "tough." Not policy refusal; that's more like contract negotiation; fix the problem and you get insurance.


I don't know of any. Examples of survey failures are common, but that is not the question.

[thinwater]

I'm guessing most of the posters have never worked on standards development in a group like ABYC. I have, for API and ASTM.

They are non-profit and work for industry. The product of the work is copyrighted. The standards are industry documents without the force of regulation.

Curiously, they can be incorporated by reference. For example, the construction, repair and inspection standards for gasoline bulk tanks are incorporated by reference from ASTM and API documents that are copyrighted and are NOT public domain. Let me repeat that: they are incorporated in federal regulation, and yet they are not public domain.

Tomorrow I am inspecting some tanks (I am licensed by API), using copyrighted standards, performing and inspection required by the EPA under federal law. The EPA inspectors that review my work, however, do not have access to the standards in many cases, because they have not purchased them.


However, in most states (not all) the company does NOT have to pull a permit to repair a million gallon tank. There are guidelines, and generally they are required to follow them, but no permit.



Weird.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I'm guessing most of the posters have never worked on standards development in a group like ABYC. I have, for API and ASTM.

Most likely true.
I’ve worked with standards committees in my industry (electronics) and I might have a different perspective. IMO, there is a certain class of nerd that thrives on writing overly verbose standards to describe simple concepts, enamored with terms like ratifying and PDF page count. These are the thinkers, not the doers. The motivation is not necessarily to define needed standards- as much as it is to publish or perish. In the end, you get what you pay for.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I can get any city building code I want for free. Can anyone explain why it should cost anything or be illegal to see marine construction standards that we should all be following?

Many codes referenced by law but developed by industry non-profits are not free.

Join the movement to end that travesty, donate to the EFF and Public Resource

EFF scores a huge appeals court victory: the law cannot be copyrighted
https://boingboing.net/2018/10/24/fr...ead-write.html

https://boingboing.net/?s="carl%20malamud"

But note ABYC is not required by any laws, so not really covered by the current battles.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

At what price would you purchase a membership and at that price how many new members would join ?

Not relavent to my point. It is business decision as to how to control the specs. I've worked on industry specs and gone to meetings overseas at considerable personal expense and certainly didn't get paid anything for my work. But did get to see a spec that had practical considerations as a priority.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I think his question is that same as that I asked to start the thread:


Concrete examples of DIY mistakes or poor maintenance that caused an actual claim to be denied. The boat sank and the insurance company said "tough." Not policy refusal; that's more like contract negotiation; fix the problem and you get insurance.


I don't know of any. Examples of survey failures are common, but that is not the question.

Yep, claim denial based on not to spec DIY install.

[907Juice]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I think his question is that same as that I asked to start the thread:


Concrete examples of DIY mistakes or poor maintenance that caused an actual claim to be denied. The boat sank and the insurance company said "tough." Not policy refusal; that's more like contract negotiation; fix the problem and you get insurance.


I don't know of any. Examples of survey failures are common, but that is not the question.

lol, I think they have moved on into their own world of internet arguments. My opinion is better than your opinion.

And if anyone even cares, most trade regulations are a pay to obtain organization. Many local codes and statutes just reference without full citations. If you cited the entire code it would be a small library full of information.

[Fore and Aft]

Here in Australia YOUI used to do marine insurance without a survey. Twice they employed me to do surveys on boats that were total losses. They have a clause that says the boat must be in seaworthy condition. Both boats had there claims denied because neither were in very good condition and had faults ranging from rotten bulkheads to corroded sea cocks and just bad maintenance.
Usually if a major fault is found in a boat survey the insurance company rings me for more clarification and asks me what a reasonable time frame would be to get the issue fixed. I had one insurance company the other day asking if I thought the boat was capable of travelling 30 miles to the nearest slip to be repaired.
Cheers

[Fiveslide]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Yep, claim denial based on not to spec DIY install.

I think if they thoroughly investigated some claims, those that are caused by shoddy DIY work would absolutely be denied. Beyond finding obvious fraud, like cutting a raw water hose with a knife causing a sinking, your average insurance investigator doesn't have enough knowledge of boats to make a determination that it should be denied. Then then there would be the court proceedings and it quickly becomes extremely expensive for both owner and insurance company to determine if a claim is paid.

If the surveyor doesn't mention it in a purchase or subsequent survey, the insurance company would be very hard pressed to prove wrong after a sinking or fire.

If boatpoker starts investigating sinkings or fires and such, boat owner's would never get a check from an insurance company again.[emoji44]

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Fiveslide

If boatpoker starts investigating sinkings or fires and such, boat owner's would never get a check from an insurance company again.[emoji44]

I don't think they would NEVER get another check, but a lot of them wouldn't. And I think a lot of them shouldn't. Like, the guy who used a Home Depot bucket with a garden hose coming out of it as a "propane locker." If his boat were to blow up, no way the insurance company should have to pay for that.

[Fiveslide]

Originally Posted by denverd0n

I don't think they would NEVER get another check, but a lot of them wouldn't. And I think a lot of them shouldn't. Like, the guy who used a Home Depot bucket with a garden hose coming out of it as a "propane locker." If his boat were to blow up, no way the insurance company should have to pay for that.

Right, however, if his boat exploded it would be tough to determine the bucket was being used for a propane locker. There'd be lots of tiny pieces to puzzle back together to prove that, unless it was mentioned on a survey and proven that the deficiency wasn't fixed. Again, lots of investigating to be done, not a lot of knowledgeable insurance adjusters to do it.