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24-03-2017, 07:58
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#31
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Hull Diver
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,427
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Re: I changed my mind
Here is a picture of a boat my company cleans here in the Bay Area. We dive her every other day. Why? She has no anti fouling paint.
The fact of the matter is that no anti fouling paint product available will eliminate fouling completely. In moderate to high fouling conditions, the best you can hope for is for the paint to retard growth. And I don't care how often you use your boat, the bottom is still going to become foul. This is simply the nature of the beast and why hull cleaners can earn a living. If you do your boating in an area where fouling is light and typically not much of a concern (cold, higher latitude waters or freshwater) you may be able to get away with infrequent or no hull cleaning (especially if you have a short sailing season, like the New England states) but everywhere else, anti fouling paint and regular in-water cleaning is a part of proper boat maintenance. And going without paint is not really an option, as even with very frequent cleaning the hull will fairly quickly become too foul to get really clean. "Invisible Hand" (pictured above) actually comes out of the water every three weeks or so for a pressure wash and reapplication of McLube HullKote speed polish.
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24-03-2017, 08:40
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: I changed my mind
My question has always been that since paints get less, & less effective (more eco friendly). Then they need to be scrubbed in the water, as well as reapplied a lot more frequently. So I can't help but to wonder if one were to tally up all of the toxins scrubbed off of your average boat over say 5yrs. Would the amount be higher now due to frequent cleanings, & repaintings, than was the case with the older (effective) paints of a few decades ago?
There's a WHOLE LOT of regulation of the little guy, where with big business...
And yeah, it's always been a pet peeve of mine.
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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24-03-2017, 08:43
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#33
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Hull Diver
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,427
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
My question has always been that since paints get less, & less effective (more eco friendly). Then they need to be scrubbed in the water, as well as reapplied a lot more frequently. So I can't help but to wonder if one were to tally up all of the toxins scrubbed off of your average boat over say 5yrs. Would the amount be higher now due to frequent cleanings, & repaintings, than was the case with the older (effective) paints of a few decades ago?
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The biocide in your anti fouling paint is eventually going to end up in the water regardless of whether or not the boat is cleaned by a diver.
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24-03-2017, 08:48
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms
The biocide in your anti fouling paint is eventually going to end up in the water regardless of whether or not the boat is cleaned by a diver.
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Yes. This part's a given. What I'm saying, or asking, is are we past the point of diminishing returns? As in having lived or on/in the oceans for most of my life, I know that there are a lot worse things that go into the water than come from recreational vessels.
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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24-03-2017, 08:51
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 9,626
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by YachtBroker
I've got a totally different take on this.
I have owned/sold a lot of boats. Boats that use divers nearly always need a new bottom job every year.
For my personal boats, When it was available two years ago, I used Interlux Ultra with bio lux (the bio lux additive has been taken off the market in the US while they do some EPA BS on trying to get it passed to be put back on the market). The additive really works.
I never use a diver to clean the hull on my personal boat. Hard paint or soft paint all you're doing is paying the guy to scrub off your paint. I use a diver only to clean prop and do zincs.
I do 2 coats on the hull and 4 on the waterline. I've done this with multiple boats that I kept in Texas with 3-4 years betwwen bottom jobs with little to no real growth and NO divers. That is the biolux additive really works.
Current boat was in Texas in brackish water for a year. In Fort Myers (granted up the river some) for 6 months. Key west and Boca Raton for 6 months. Has been in Marsh Harbor Bahamas now for 6 months. I can with a deck brush still wipe off most the growth on the waterline about 12" down. I know I am getting some growth now but still not much on barnacles.
Better paints properly applied and with no one (diver) scrubbing them off monthly or quarterly do work.
I'm about to do a bottom job 2.5 years later and I expect the prep work will be just a pressure wash with little to no barnacle growth.
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We're lucky in that our harbors are fairly starved of oxygen, and death to sea life. This makes bottoms easy, slime is the only thing that grows. However we left out boat in isla mujeres for 5 months and returned to the beginnings of a coral reef. At that point our paint was only about a year and a half old. Now that the boat is back in the watergate inner harbor the new (3 years ago) bottom paint is still only sliming, and I've had a diver out once to prep the slow pig for the icicle series.
So location is everything with bottoms.
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24-03-2017, 09:01
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#36
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Hull Diver
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,427
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
Yes. This part's a given. What I'm saying, or asking, is are we past the point of diminishing returns? As in having lived or on/in the oceans for most of my life, I know that there are a lot worse things that go into the water than come from recreational vessels.
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Copper-based anti fouling paints have always needed in-water cleaning. There was not some magical time in the past where this was not the case. Tin-based paints predate my time in the hull cleaning biz, so I cannot speak to their need (or not) for in-water cleaning. But if that's what you are referring to, then you're comparing apples to oranges.
Proper in-water hull cleaning techniques do not shorten an anti fouling paint's lifespan. Quite the opposite in fact. It is fallacious to infer that by maintaining your paint you are increasing the number of times new paint needs to be applied.
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24-03-2017, 09:13
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by fstbttms
Copper-based anti fouling paints have always needed in-water cleaning. There was not some magical time in the past where this was not the case. Tin-based paints predate my time in the hull cleaning biz, so I cannot speak to their need (or not) for in-water cleaning. But if that's what you are referring to, then you're comparing apples to oranges.
I know that several decades back, the number of divers working on rec' boats was miniscule as compared to now. And hull fouling was a lot less. Divers or no. Without question. You could go months without cleaning, even in warm waters. Assuming decent paint.
Specifically I'm speaking of the 1980's. As I'm a bit young to recall details from earlier times than that. But even in the early 90's there were a lot less divers in rec' harbors cleaning boats than there are now.
Proper in-water hull cleaning techniques do not shorten an anti fouling paint's lifespan. Quite the opposite in fact. It is fallacious to infer that by maintaining your paint you are increasing the number of times new paint needs to be applied.
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If you're using an ablative paint, then by definition, more cleanings equals shorter paint life. Where's the flaw in this thinking? And even with non-ablative paints, if you scrub them more, whether to remove fouling, or not, you're speeding up the release of biocides, non? And once the biocides are gone it's time for new paint.
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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24-03-2017, 09:21
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#38
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Hull Diver
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Under a boat, in a marina, in the San Francisco Bay
Posts: 5,427
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
[COLOR=navy]If you're using an ablative paint, then by definition, more cleanings equals shorter paint life. Where's the flaw in this thinking?
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Given that the paint has to be cleaned, letting it become more foul means more aggressive cleaning must be employed to remove the growth. This is what will shorten a paint's lifespan. Relatively frequent, gentle cleanings are far easier on the paint than less frequent, more abrasive cleanings. This is true for ablatives and hard paints.
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24-03-2017, 09:47
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#39
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,750
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
It was a non epa approved bottom paint manufactured by the dutch company Jotun. Not sure they still do.
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I used Jotun Sea Queen until it was taken off the market for being insufficiently environmentally friendly. Great stuff. It seemed to slough off quite a bit when pressure washed, but still lasted two years at a time.
I then switched to International Micron Extra which did not work too well for me although it's highly rated.
Now I'm using very expensive International Micron 77, which has worked noticeably better than other antifouling I've used, and has given me noticeably better boat speed.
The type and condition of antifouling makes a huge difference in what kind of fouling you get, in my experience. The stuff really grows like crazy around here, if the antifouling is too old or too thin. I can't even imagine what would happen without any antifouling at all.
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24-03-2017, 18:11
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Boat: None at this time
Posts: 8,462
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally posted by UNCIVILIZED: I know that several decades back, the number of divers working on rec' boats was miniscule as compared to now. And hull fouling was a lot less. Divers or no. Without question. You could go months without cleaning, even in warm waters. Assuming decent paint.
Specifically I'm speaking of the 1980's. As I'm a bit young to recall details from earlier times than that. But even in the early 90's there were a lot less divers in rec' harbors cleaning boats than there are now.
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I knew a diver in Vancouver B.C., back in the late 70's and early 80's, who used to make his money cleaning the bottoms of fishing boats. I know that my boat took root one time when I was busy and did't give her the TLC she needed. That was in rather cold water.
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26-03-2017, 07:07
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 5
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Re: I changed my mind
where in Trinidad did you get that "submarine paint?"
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26-03-2017, 10:09
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 7,141
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
Yeah, here in the PNW I never had a problem with whatever paint I used. Little growth in 2 years... except mossy slime loves to grow. Can grow 6" long in 3 months!
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I'm in the PNW as well, but after installing an UltraSoniTec barnacle repellant system, I am now starting my fourth year on Interlux Micron Ultra, or is it Extra? I forget.
No longer do I get any growth except for a light slime, and it never gets more than about 1/8" long.
Before the installation of the UltraSoniTec, it used to grow like Cheechako's. LOOONG hair !
No longer do I have critters plugging up my knotmeter impeller.
The boat sits with no movement for months at a time and still the knotmeter works right off the bat every time.
The only underwater maintenance is zinc change and prop polishing.
I no longer touch the paint at all.
The little bit of slime that does attach, dies and quickly and sails off within a few hours. The boat just gets gradually faster and faster.
Laugh all you want, but that ultrasonic system has my vote.
__________________
The question is not, "Who will let me?"
The question is,"Who is going to stop me?"
Ayn Rand
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26-03-2017, 11:30
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,453
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Skelley
where in Trinidad did you get that "submarine paint?"
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Hmmmm... I cant remember, I think it was at the boat supply store next to Powerboats.... I don't know that it was labeled "submarine paint" but every one called it that... Black only IIRC.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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26-03-2017, 11:35
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,453
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Re: I changed my mind
Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico
I'm in the PNW as well, but after installing an UltraSoniTec barnacle repellant system, I am now starting my fourth year on Interlux Micron Ultra, or is it Extra? I forget.
No longer do I get any growth except for a light slime, and it never gets more than about 1/8" long.
Before the installation of the UltraSoniTec, it used to grow like Cheechako's. LOOONG hair !
No longer do I have critters plugging up my knotmeter impeller.
The boat sits with no movement for months at a time and still the knotmeter works right off the bat every time.
The only underwater maintenance is zinc change and prop polishing.
I no longer touch the paint at all.
The little bit of slime that does attach, dies and quickly and sails off within a few hours. The boat just gets gradually faster and faster.
Laugh all you want, but that ultrasonic system has my vote.
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Yeah, in Shilshole Bay Marina I would go 2 years with Woolsey Neptune paint. (in the 90's) There would only be a few barnacles at that point... I mean like maybe 10.
In the Caribe, 6 months after new, Pettit Trinidad would have barnacles to 3/8" diameter in the thousands after 5 weeks from the last scraping. Big difference.
In LaConner WA, green hairy grass would grow to 6" long in a month + over new Interlux paint. Lots of current but must have been perfect nutrients for that grassy stuff. It would grow where the light or sunlight was strongest.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard
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