Hydraulic Steering Hoses - Getting a Headache

[Sorcery61]

On my 70 foot schooner I have now got high quality gates hose with SS reusable Parker hannifin hose ends in JIC female swivel
Copper is a ooor long term choice as it corrodes away too fast in a warm salt water environment and tends to hammer with autopilot pump running unless very well supported
My suggestion is to minimize leak paths, use good quality hose that is designed for hydraulic service
If you really want metal tubing and are ocean sailing then definitely use tungum tubing with correct fittings and flexible hose ends would be my suggestion
Also consider using and environmentally friendly fluid that can be easily cleaned up when a failure occurs

[s/v Jedi]

I once replaced hoses in a place that didn’t have stainless steel fittings, so I got mild steel. After installation I sprayed multiple coats of corrosion inhibitor, then wrapped with rescue tape. I had to replace the hoses again 15 years later and under the rescue tape and corrosion inhibitor was like new mild steel.

A lot of money can be saved with this.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I once replaced hoses in a place that didn’t have stainless steel fittings, so I got mild steel. After installation I sprayed multiple coats of corrosion inhibitor, then wrapped with rescue tape. I had to replace the hoses again 15 years later and under the rescue tape and corrosion inhibitor was like new mild steel.

A lot of money can be saved with this.

You know, I’ve often wondered about this. I’ve wondered if there isn’t a way to use mild steel or similar for certain things and just cover them in something like polyurethane or Vaseline. I remember my first bicycle on a boat. It rusted out the first year I had it. My second bicycle was covered in Vaseline where I thought it seemed vulnerable to rust and it never rusted at all.

Why isn’t the same treatment done with normal copper wiring or as in your case, standard fittings on hydraulic hoses?

[Chotu]

Follow on question.

Where is everyone’s hydraulic pump for your autopilot located?

Is it lower than the helm AND all downhill from the helm to the pump or dies that not matter too much?

It says to locate the pump as close to the rams as possible. The closest point to BOTH rams is in the aft box beam on the centerline. Is that where everyone’s is?

Also, if I mount there, the lowest point is the bridgedeck floor. It has to mount slightly above the bridge deck floor, but the lines from the helm have to travel from my forward helm all the way back there at the level of the bridge deck floor or lower to be out of the way.

This makes it impossible to bleed, right?

How do all the other boats handle this?


Or.... is it ok to have the autopilot motor uphill from a lower run of hose/pipe, so long as the rams are lower than the rest?

[bgallinger]

May I suggest that you don't cheap out on this. Use high quality wire braided hydraulic hose manufactured by Parker, Gates or others. https://www.gates.com/us/en/fluid-po...00-000012.html

Use the same hose type throughout for pressure and return lines.

Use Stainless Steel (316 or 304) JIC (BSP if you are in Europe) crimped on female swivel fittings. Matching JIC male fittings on the hydraulic cylinders. Do not use NPT fittings.

If you want to use lengths of copper pipe, check the safe working pressure!! There are different wall thicknesses available. I would suggest all hydraulic hose or stainless steel pipe rated for pressure. If you use S.S. tubing, use a minimum 3 foot length of hydraulic hose to the cylinders.

Purchase your hose with crimped on fittings at a local hydraulic shop, heavy truck or tractor repair shop. Buy some spare hose lengths.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

May I suggest that you don't cheap out on this. Use high quality wire braided hydraulic hose manufactured by Parker, Gates or others. https://www.gates.com/us/en/fluid-po...00-000012.html
Use the same hose type throughout for pressure and return lines.
Use Stainless Steel (316 or 304) JIC (BSP if you are in Europe) crimped on female swivel fittings. Matching JIC male fittings on the hydraulic cylinders. Do not use NPT fittings.
If you want to use lengths of copper pipe, check the safe working pressure!! There are different wall thicknesses available. I would suggest all hydraulic hose or stainless steel pipe rated for pressure.
Purchase your hose with crimped on fittings at a local hydraulic shop, heavy truck or tractor repair shop. Buy some spare hose lengths.

The one caveat to that is finding stainless JIC fittings can be a challenge! There is nothing wrong with NPT fittings. My entire hydraulic system came with them from the factory! The Helm, relief valve AND ram are threaded for NPT. of course the AP Pump fittings are threaded for ORB... go figure!

[rslifkin]

When the original copper hydraulic lines on my boat failed (corroded through due to poor routing originally letting them get wet and salty), they were replaced with some kind of plastic hard lines. The replacement lines have been in place for almost 20 years with no issues and no noticeable line flex when steering under load.

No autopilot in my setup (yet) so I can't help with that part. My lines just go between the helm pump, reservoir, and ram (3 line Hynautic setup with a single double-ended ram to drive my 2 rudders).

In my system, the relief valves pop at 950 psi. So as far as hydraulics go, this isn't a super high pressure application. Tractors and other stuff often run higher pressures.

[pcmm]

My autopilot pump is plumbed close to the steering cylinder. It’s Tee’d into the lines at the relief valve. My AP pump is an Octopus brand pump connected to a Raymarine smartpilot system. The pump is low in the system, just because of the location that was convenient to place it.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

May I suggest that you don't cheap out on this. Use high quality wire braided hydraulic hose manufactured by Parker, Gates or others. https://www.gates.com/us/en/fluid-po...00-000012.html

Use the same hose type throughout for pressure and return lines.

Use Stainless Steel (316 or 304) JIC (BSP if you are in Europe) crimped on female swivel fittings. Matching JIC male fittings on the hydraulic cylinders. Do not use NPT fittings.

If you want to use lengths of copper pipe, check the safe working pressure!! There are different wall thicknesses available. I would suggest all hydraulic hose or stainless steel pipe rated for pressure. If you use S.S. tubing, use a minimum 3 foot length of hydraulic hose to the cylinders.

Purchase your hose with crimped on fittings at a local hydraulic shop, heavy truck or tractor repair shop. Buy some spare hose lengths.

I haven’t cheaped out on anything with this boat. At all. Quite the opposite. I get the best possible materials money can buy.

Copper, according to the helm manufacturer and ram manufacturer, is the best hydraulic material money can buy. But, you can’t hook it right up to the components or it’ll break. So I need little runs of hose to make the connections.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by pcmm

My autopilot pump is plumbed close to the steering cylinder. It’s Tee’d into the lines at the relief valve. My AP pump is an Octopus brand pump connected to a Raymarine smartpilot system. The pump is low in the system, just because of the location that was convenient to place it.

Interesting!

The installation manuals say not to do this. It would make my installation a LOT easier if I did.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by pcmm

The one caveat to that is finding stainless JIC fittings can be a challenge! There is nothing wrong with NPT fittings. My entire hydraulic system came with them from the factory! The Helm, relief valve AND ram are threaded for NPT. of course the AP Pump fittings are threaded for ORB... go figure!

This is true. NPT fittings are on the helm pump and the autopilot pump already from the factory. So I’m not sure the above not to use them is accurate.

I’ll be doing trusty flair fittings for all the copper, then whatever the components of the system require for the connection to them. That’s NPT for the helm pump (SeaStar Capilano), BSP OR NPT fittings for the autohelm pump and whatever those fittings are on the rams.

Here is the advice straight from the steering manufacturer

[bgallinger]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is true. NPT fittings are on the helm pump and the autopilot pump already from the factory. So I’m not sure the above not to use them is accurate.

I’ll be doing trusty flair fittings for all the copper, then whatever the components of the system require for the connection to them. That’s NPT for the helm pump (SeaStar Capilano), BSP OR NPT fittings for the autohelm pump and whatever those fittings are on the rams.

Here is the advice straight from the steering manufacturer

Hydraulics is what I do in the offshore oil industry.
Refer to https://www.nfpa.com/home.htm for further information and help!

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Interesting!

The installation manuals say not to do this. It would make my installation a LOT easier if I did.

what does your installation manual say not to do?

[SV__Grace]

FWIW, when we bought our boat our dual helm hydraulic steering system leaked like hell and both steering pumps needed re-building/replacing. Ugh.

When our mechanic proposed replacing the copper lines with hoses (parker) I was nervous but he assured me I wouldn't be able to tell the difference and he was right- steering is fine as long as the system is well bled.

Our auto pilot pump is mounted by the rams and is one of the few components I didn't have to replace, works like a champ.

I don't know if this helps but when bleeding my system I circulate the fluid through the system by turning the wheel(s) so the level/height of the hose or device really doesn't matter.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by pcmm

what does your installation manual say not to do?

It says to install the autopilot pump as close to the rams as possible. Not near the helm.