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18-02-2017, 12:46
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#31
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald
"Every job is different and requires thorough inspection and evaluation before a specific repair method can be recommended." ramblinrod
D
Agree completely, rod. However, what other "various repair techniques" you refer to earlier would be effective for the OP's boat assuming the core is wet and has delaminated that "do not require ripping skins off?' Thanks.
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Can't afford to spend he time duplicating what's already available, and reluctant to equip unqualified DIYers with just enough info to get themselves in trouble. At the start of my FRP repair seminar, I advise all participants they will not be qualified to perform critical repairs safely, after a 2 hour lecture and demo.
Just like sailing takes a day to learn the basics but a lifetime to master, so does FRP repair.
I will not give a boater on the water directions how to get their destination. I will give them directions to nearest marina to purchase charts, and navigation tools, and an opportunity in a safe environment to learn how to use them. To do otherwise could be inadvertently sending them to their peril if they get my directions wrong.
There are many methods of chemical, forced air, and vacuum, with and without heat, to displace water and replace replace with inert material.
So the best advice I can give, is if you are already an FRP expert, you shouldn't have to ask; if you aren't an FRP expert, you should either become one or hire one. To become one takes considerable education, skills development, and practice. Only a fool would practice on a vessel their safety is dependant on.
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19-02-2017, 08:25
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Now based on Florida's West coast
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,713
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
Can't afford to spend he time duplicating what's already available, and reluctant to equip unqualified DIYers with just enough info to get themselves in trouble. At the start of my FRP repair seminar, I advise all participants they will not be qualified to perform critical repairs safely, after a 2 hour lecture and demo.
Just like sailing takes a day to learn the basics but a lifetime to master, so does FRP repair.
I will not give a boater on the water directions how to get their destination. I will give them directions to nearest marina to purchase charts, and navigation tools, and an opportunity in a safe environment to learn how to use them. To do otherwise could be inadvertently sending them to their peril if they get my directions wrong.
There are many methods of chemical, forced air, and vacuum, with and without heat, to displace water and replace replace with inert material.
So the best advice I can give, is if you are already an FRP expert, you shouldn't have to ask; if you aren't an FRP expert, you should either become one or hire one. To become one takes considerable education, skills development, and practice. Only a fool would practice on a vessel their safety is dependant on.
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Wow! There's so much here I don't know where to begin. Firstly, I apologize for assuming you would share your deep knowledge and experience for the OP who is facing, perhaps, a very expensive repair on a Forum which seeks to exchange knowledge from a variety of people. I should realize that you have spent a lifetime of study and repair to accumulate the specialized and profound knowledge of which you so closely protect and guard and that sharing of this knowledge doesn't come cheaply. Sorry. Secondly, I would be foolhardly to pretend after 30 years of boat ownership and extensive figerglass repair experience that I could compare my skills with someone who has devoted his life every day living knee deep in fiberglass dust, cloth and resin fixing others boats for a living. This is a given but my limited skills have worked for me on several boats--none of which has had extensive hull delamination, as the OP, but would be considered by most as exceptionally clean, solid, well-found boats. Finally, in light of my above remarks, I must confess I am guilty of being "a fool" for practicing "on a vessel their safety is dependant(sp) on" but I been called worse in my life. So, thanks for your informative response and your serious warning to those of us who dabble in the dark art of fiberglass repair . . . I suppose I just love to live close to the edge. Good luck and safe sailing.
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
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19-02-2017, 10:30
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#33
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald
Wow! There's so much here I don't know where to begin. Firstly, I apologize for assuming you would share your deep knowledge and experience for the OP who is facing, perhaps, a very expensive repair on a Forum which seeks to exchange knowledge from a variety of people. I should realize that you have spent a lifetime of study and repair to accumulate the specialized and profound knowledge of which you so closely protect and guard and that sharing of this knowledge doesn't come cheaply. Sorry. Secondly, I would be foolhardly to pretend after 30 years of boat ownership and extensive figerglass repair experience that I could compare my skills with someone who has devoted his life every day living knee deep in fiberglass dust, cloth and resin fixing others boats for a living. This is a given but my limited skills have worked for me on several boats--none of which has had extensive hull delamination, as the OP, but would be considered by most as exceptionally clean, solid, well-found boats. Finally, in light of my above remarks, I must confess I am guilty of being "a fool" for practicing "on a vessel their safety is dependant(sp) on" but I been called worse in my life. So, thanks for your informative response and your serious warning to those of us who dabble in the dark art of fiberglass repair . . . I suppose I just love to live close to the edge. Good luck and safe sailing.
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Buddy...
A little cosmetic nick or bump is a different story, but a compromised deck or hull, is not something to start fooling with, without a great deal of expertise.
Someone may get lucky, another may suffer catastrophic damage in the next storm.
I would never propose a repair solution for any type of damage like this, without seeing it with my own eyes first, and performing proper, first hand, investigation and evaluation.
Anyone who claims to be able to offer the best solution for the OP through this forum is kidding themselves.
They may advise what they have done that has worked (sorta, maybe, in their opinion) at least up to now.
Was their solution the best solution? Nobody here can possibly know. There may have been another, or many other, solutions that would have been more reliable, economical, or aesthetically pleasing.
So knowing what I do know (which is likely more than some and less than others), the absolute best advice I can give, is to consult a fibreglass pro.
To cover every possible repair investigation, consideration, and methodology, would be akin to writing, "The Complete Guide to Fibreglass Repair" here on this forum, and I'm not about to do that; I have too many customers waiting for me to complete their fibreglass repairs.
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19-02-2017, 11:38
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Brazil, Spain, The Netherlands
Boat: Boatless at the moment
Posts: 381
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
Buddy...
A little cosmetic nick or bump is a different story, but a compromised deck or hull, is not something to start fooling with, without a great deal of expertise.
Someone may get lucky, another may suffer catastrophic damage in the next storm.
I would never propose a repair solution for any type of damage like this, without seeing it with my own eyes first, and performing proper, first hand, investigation and evaluation.
Anyone who claims to be able to offer the best solution for the OP through this forum is kidding themselves.
They may advise what they have done that has worked (sorta, maybe, in their opinion) at least up to now.
Was their solution the best solution? Nobody here can possibly know. There may have been another, or many other, solutions that would have been more reliable, economical, or aesthetically pleasing.
So knowing what I do know (which is likely more than some and less than others), the absolute best advice I can give, is to consult a fibreglass pro.
To cover every possible repair investigation, consideration, and methodology, would be akin to writing, "The Complete Guide to Fibreglass Repair" here on this forum, and I'm not about to do that; I have too many customers waiting for me to complete their fibreglass repairs.
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You use so many words and i still don't understand what you try to say or explain.
__________________
Ranulph Fiennes — 'There is no bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.'
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19-02-2017, 13:35
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#35
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricolor
You use so many words and i still don't understand what you try to say or explain.
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This is as clear as I can be. "If you have a Fibreglass issue and are not a Fibreglass repair pro, consult one." It may save you endless grief and countless dollars.
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19-02-2017, 14:14
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Boat: 1973 Easterly 36
Posts: 458
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
This isn't the same ramblinrod that commented on here as the builder of the flying Hawaiian is it? If not it's an awful unfortunate pick of a name on here. Not dissing you if it's just a coincidence.
__________________
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." Antoine de
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19-02-2017, 17:26
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Lacolle Quebec
Boat: Tanzer 8.5 #51
Posts: 163
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricolor
You use so many words and i still don't understand what you try to say or explain.
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He's comparing replacing siding on a house to replacing a structural beam on a bridge.
Screw up the siding...no biggie.
Screw up the structural beam...could be OK with light loads but disastrous with heavy loads.
__________________
Markus
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19-02-2017, 18:12
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Lacolle Quebec
Boat: Tanzer 8.5 #51
Posts: 163
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout 30
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Thanks for the link. Very informative. And no holes to drill. It is targeted for hull drying but I don't see why it couldn't be used for deck as well?
__________________
Markus
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20-02-2017, 07:43
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#39
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Now based on Florida's West coast
Boat: Pearson 34-II
Posts: 2,713
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
Buddy...
A little cosmetic nick or bump is a different story, but a compromised deck or hull, is not something to start fooling with, without a great deal of expertise.
Someone may get lucky, another may suffer catastrophic damage in the next storm.
I would never propose a repair solution for any type of damage like this, without seeing it with my own eyes first, and performing proper, first hand, investigation and evaluation.
Anyone who claims to be able to offer the best solution for the OP through this forum is kidding themselves.
They may advise what they have done that has worked (sorta, maybe, in their opinion) at least up to now.
Was their solution the best solution? Nobody here can possibly know. There may have been another, or many other, solutions that would have been more reliable, economical, or aesthetically pleasing.
So knowing what I do know (which is likely more than some and less than others), the absolute best advice I can give, is to consult a fibreglass pro.
To cover every possible repair investigation, consideration, and methodology, would be akin to writing, "The Complete Guide to Fibreglass Repair" here on this forum, and I'm not about to do that; I have too many customers waiting for me to complete their fibreglass repairs.
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Perhaps Appick's post #36 best sums up the above soliloquy. However, a brief comment of these remarks will give the OP another perspective in determining his final determination:
Sentence 1: Untrue for a person with average mechanical skills
Sentence 2: There is no luck in fiberglass repair. It is not Quantum Physics.
Patent fear mongering.
Sentence 3: Correct
Sentence 4: Ergo, this Forum is populated with a large percentage of
people who are "kidding themselves."
Sentence 5: Experience?
Sentence 6: In life, one must make choices to resolve a problem otherwise
nothing is accomplished.
Sentence 7: Never do your own work even if you have mechanical skills.
Always hire someone like Ramblinrod.
Sentence 8: No one asked you to write a book. Only your professional
advice. However, despite the long lines waiting for your
services, I recall a saying used in business: If you ever want
something done quickly, give it to a busy man.
Good luck and safe sailing . . . Buddy
__________________
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."
Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathrustra
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20-02-2017, 08:40
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#40
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by appick
This isn't the same ramblinrod that commented on here as the builder of the flying Hawaiian is it? If not it's an awful unfortunate pick of a name on here. Not dissing you if it's just a coincidence.
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Nope, this is the RamblinRod from Sheen Marine.
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20-02-2017, 08:46
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#41
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Use the custom search feature and you will find a number of posts on Hotvac, I was for many years the only operator west of the Mississippi. Including a thread on how to build your own for cheap.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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20-02-2017, 22:29
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#42
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by rognvald
Good luck and safe sailing
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I certainly concur with this portion of your post # 20...
Quote:
"A reliable diagnosis from a qualified and expert fiberglass repair specialist must be done before any repairs are undertaken."
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I can't speak for other FRP repair people, but if I'm already in the area, the first 15 minutes of consultation is free.
Beyond that I have to charge rate because it is consuming my billable hours and livelihood.
Regardless, the result of the consultation generally saves the owner far more than the cost of the consultation.
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21-02-2017, 06:01
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Boat: 1973 Easterly 36
Posts: 458
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
Nope, this is the RamblinRod from Sheen Marine.
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OK sorry about any ill reference linked with that. I thought you sounded much more intelligent than the other rod but had to make sure. The other Rod claimed to be an expert in many fields. Lol. Glad to hear you actually are one.
__________________
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea." Antoine de
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21-02-2017, 10:28
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#44
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkusK
He's comparing replacing siding on a house to replacing a structural beam on a bridge.
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Depending on location and severity, the compromised integrity of a rotted or delaminated FRP composite can lead to catastrophic failure, under normal conditions.
This is not likely a cosmetic issue.
This could be a serious defect and if the owner is not "well practiced" in fibreglass composite evaluation and repair, my best possible recommendation is to get an FRP repair pro to inspect the boat, confirm the findings of the surveyor, and recommend an appropriate course of action.
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21-02-2017, 13:15
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Nr WINCHESTER IN UK
Boat: HUNTER LEGEND 456
Posts: 7
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Re: HUNTER 456 (2002) - PROBLEMS WITH HULL GLASS FIBRE DELAMINATING
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
Yes, I'm aware, just verifying the OP is because so many use it for above the toe
rail.
For this very reason when I communicate with customers, I use:
A) below the waterline
B) between waterline and toe rail
C) above the toerail
When someone uses "topsides" you have to verify everyone s talking the same thing.
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I should add that any water ingress on the "topsides" of the hull (That area between the water and the deck) is only apparent or possible from a breaking down of the hull to deck joint seal which is a bolted internal flange concealed externally by the continuous rub rail around the hull of the Hunter Passage 456. Why the joint seal has apparently failed on both port and starboard sides some 10-15 feet from the stern is a mystery - and certainly something that could have happened during manufacture of this otherwise superbly 'strong' vessel which superlative likened me to purchase the yacht in the first place, where my previous yacht, built by WESTERLY Yachts in UK, had similarly excellent scantlings and characteristics.
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