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19-02-2015, 04:14
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#16
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CLOD
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: being planted in Jacksonville Fl
Boat: none
Posts: 20,364
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
Well I can only post of about a single experience with X-rays but FWIW, it was pretty easy to arrange in Perth, Western Australia.
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Interesting (and crazy low cost). I've never heard of anyone doing it where I keep my boat (not the same as it hasn't been done). I would expect the tree hugger types to go crazy.
__________________
Don't ask a bunch of unknown forum people if it is OK to do something on YOUR boat. It is your boat, do what you want!
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19-02-2015, 04:50
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon
Posts: 5,975
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
And if you've got a significant quantity of lead down low in the boat, where the bolts are, what then? As I'm guessing that OSHA or whom ever isn't going to sign off on cranking up an x-ray machine high enough to "see" through all of that.
Or, as in the above pictures, that's a good bit of lead to look through in order to "see" the bolts.
Albeit, there are other types of Non-Destructive Testing (NDT) which are a bit more people friendly, & would/will work on various different types of boat construction. Though I don't have links to said resources in front of me @ the moment.
If someone else does, I'd Definitely appreciate it if you'd post them. Heck, I'd even throw in a case of your favorite beverage for your troubles ;-)
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Careful Unciv...
It might be worth a case of bourbon for me to do a little research...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1
It's one thing to x-ray a pipe or hull weld. But the 1/10 thickness of lead for gamma radiation is 2", so a 12" wide lead keel would take a mighty powerful gamma source.
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GAMMA GAMMA HEY!
Originally Posted by Wotname
Well I can only post of about a single experience with X-rays but FWIW, it was pretty easy to arrange in Perth, Western Australia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorboy1
Interesting (and crazy low cost). I've never heard of anyone doing it where I keep my boat (not the same as it hasn't been done). I would expect the tree hugger types to go crazy.
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No kidding huh???
Sad are the times when something simple due to tech advances... needs a mountain of paperwork and a fee that covers the inevitable liability...
Pretty cool story Wot...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...
Mai Tai's fix everything...
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19-02-2015, 05:36
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor
Careful Unciv...
It might be worth a case of bourbon for me to do a little research...
No kidding huh???
Sad are the times when something simple due to tech advances... needs a mountain of paperwork and a fee that covers the inevitable liability...
Pretty cool story Wot...
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If you can figure out how to get good image resolution on bolts which in essence, have 2-3'+ of lead on either side of them, I'd be rather impressed. That, or to do it via a high angle overhead/semi side-looking scan through 6-12" of the stuff I'd be mighty impressed by that as well.
Of course, if you can pull that off, I'd also be asking you to take me on a tour of Area-51.
As to the paperwork vs. what's possible using hardware likely my Dad's age to do such a job, we're in COMPLETE agreement!
Ugh, I hate BS & Paper pushers, who's only real job, is to generate so much paper that folks have to keep them around in order to organize the essentially (useless) stuff. And for them to explain by using creative nonsense, why common sense doesn't apply to them or what they do.
To borrow a phrase from a gent who worked for me. "Sir, they (computers) make it WAY too easy for busy bodies to make WAY too much paperwork (for anyone's good)".
__________________
The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
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19-02-2015, 05:44
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#19
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Boat: 48 Wauquiez Pilot Saloon
Posts: 5,975
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
If you can figure out how to get good image resolution on bolts which in essence, have 2-3'+ of lead on either side of them, I'd be rather impressed. That, or to do it via a high angle overhead/semi side-looking scan through 6-12" of the stuff I'd be mighty impressed by that as well.
Of course, if you can pull that off, I'd also be asking you to take me on a tour of Area-51.
Well... If I'm gunna have to prove the effectiveness of my theories... I might as well abandon the effort...
As to the paperwork vs. what's possible using hardware likely my Dad's age to do such a job, we're in COMPLETE agreement!
Ugh, I hate BS & Paper pushers, who's only real job, is to generate so much paper that folks have to keep them around in order to organize the essentially (useless) stuff. And for them to explain by using creative nonsense, why common sense doesn't apply to them or what they do.
To borrow a phrase from a gent who worked for me. "Sir, they (computers) make it WAY too easy for busy bodies to make WAY too much paperwork (for anyone's good)".
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Man.... You shoulda evolved with me going from CA in the 60's to CA in the 2k's.... mind boggling...
__________________
In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair...
Mai Tai's fix everything...
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19-02-2015, 08:36
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: President 43 Sportfish
Posts: 4,105
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Re: How to check keel bolts
"Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
If they are bolts just remove them, one at a time, and replace. If they are studs, you'll likely have to drop the keel."
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikFinn
Have you (anyone) done this with boat in the water (bolts)? Ok, or definitely not?
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Come on! Removing keel bolts or dropping the keel is something you want to do at haulout.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
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19-02-2015, 18:13
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Malaysia, Thailand
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 430
Posts: 860
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova
"Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
If they are bolts just remove them, one at a time, and replace. If they are studs, you'll likely have to drop the keel."
Come on! Removing keel bolts or dropping the keel is something you want to do at haulout.
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Yea I was referring to the changing the bolts one at a time, not dropping the keel, obviously.
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19-02-2015, 19:28
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Ponce Inlet
Boat: 1979 Hunter 30 Cherubini
Posts: 49
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Remove bolts with boat in the water? All of them? At one Time?
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19-02-2015, 20:18
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Beneteau FIRST 42
Posts: 1,836
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikFinn
Yea I was referring to the changing the bolts one at a time, not dropping the keel, obviously.
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just replaced mine, bolts, one at a time, while the boat is in the water..
Replacing the bolts in the water will show you if the hull to keel joint is sealed.
Mine is, and not a drop of water comming up.. If you have water comming from the hole where you pull the bolt, the joint is compromised and the boat needs to be hauled and the keel dropped............
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19-02-2015, 21:08
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Malaysia, Thailand
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 430
Posts: 860
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyonr3
just replaced mine, bolts, one at a time, while the boat is in the water..
Replacing the bolts in the water will show you if the hull to keel joint is sealed.
Mine is, and not a drop of water comming up.. If you have water comming from the hole where you pull the bolt, the joint is compromised and the boat needs to be hauled and the keel dropped............
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Now thats more like a reply I was hoping for instead of some " ".
Too many times problem on forums is that people are too narrow minded and consider "my way or high way" to be the only approach when it comes to someone hoping to stimulate an educated conversation.
Thank you for your educated and kind post Randy
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16-03-2015, 12:21
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#25
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Enkhuizen, NL
Boat: Pearson 36-1
Posts: 755
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Re: How to check keel bolts
This is about a 1973 Pearson 36-1 with a deep bilge sump and 12 bronze 5/8" J-bolts.
I hope this is the correct thread, but I need to drop my keel due to slight separation between the lead and the fiberglass keel stub. The silicone around the keel bolts has failed due to age and there is a 1mm separation in the front of the lead/keel stub joint. The keel bolts haven't been retorqued in 42 years and she has bumped a couple of rocks lately. No wonder she is smiling.
My first problem is somebody, probably Pearson poured resin into the bilge and all over the keel bolt holes in the bilge. I have to clean all the threads of the bronze "J" bolts before I can remove the 15/16" nuts from the 5/8" studs. In some places, I can barely reach the keel bolt nut and can't get a Dremel with a small wire brush all around the stud. Needless to say there isn't room for a die to clean the threads.
Some of the bolts are so close to the bilge wall, or in such a tight spot that I can't get even a deep socket over the 3" of extended bronze bolt without removing a 1/4" of bilge wall.
I have been able to remove 9 of the 12 nuts from their 5/8" bolts, but I may have to resort to splitting the last 3 bronze nuts.
I am having really deep (150mm and 225mm long) hole saws made by cutting bi-metal hole saws in half that have the ID of my keel bolt's OD and welding in lengths of tubing.
I need to be able to put the hole saw over the 3" long bolt that's protuding up into the bilge and then still cut through 3" of bilge floor down to the lead. I already made test holes with a 1/4 drill bit.
I will have the boat lifted off the travel lift and block the keel somehow. Suggestions?
I may not be able to use the die to clean all the 5/8" threads until the keel is separated from the hull. I just can't risk having the keel bolts hanging up when the boat is lifted.
Couple of more questions.
Drilling test holes to find the lead under the bilge floor brought up shavings of what looks like MarineTex. White chalky plastic with no signs of any glass fibers.
Second question: Can I carefully use a pencil torch to burn off the MarineTex/resin/frozen snot whatever-it-is from the bronze keel studs? Does bronze lose temper or anything when heated. I am not talking about red hot, only just to burn of that crap that's all over the keel studs.
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16-03-2015, 14:03
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#26
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,305
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Wow, impressively big job and I can't help much except to say I think (but don't know) the bronze will be OK with the amount of heat you plan to use.
Good luck with the job.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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16-03-2015, 14:34
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Noank, Ct. USA
Boat: Cape Dory 31
Posts: 3,169
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Re: How to check keel bolts
This is unique to Britain, but it's a very effective technique nonetheless.
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18-03-2015, 01:11
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Hi there, I have a Carter 33 and a small crack has appeared between the keel and the hull from the front going back 12 inches. I'm going to check the keel bolts but I don't know the torque values. Any idea where I would find them and is there anything else I need to know? Hope you guys can help and many thanks
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18-03-2015, 03:12
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#29
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Enkhuizen, NL
Boat: Pearson 36-1
Posts: 755
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Re: How to check keel bolts
Torque values go by bolt size. More information is on the internet.
1/2" 38ft lbs
5/8" 70ft lbs
3/4" 125ft lbs
1" 280ft lbs
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13-04-2015, 13:40
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 4
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Re: How to check keel bolts
What do you do if you have studs embedded in a cast iron keel and they look to be in need of replacement? Are they replaceable?
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