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Old 03-03-2021, 16:43   #46
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Quite correct on the 1708. Used with epoxy, a much stronger lay-up is achieved. There is at least one company that sells Mat with a different formulated binder for epoxy.
Thought I would add...
From epoxyworks.com... "Can WEST SYSTEM® epoxy be used to wet out chopped strand mat? The answer is yes. The fiberglass strand in mat wets out with epoxy, but the binder holding things together does not dissolve. (It does get put into suspension and is sealed in the cured epoxy.) This undissolved binder causes the wet-out mat to remain a bit stiff compared to wet out with a styrene-based resin. For gently curving or flat projects like cabin soles or plywood decks, mat and epoxy should work fine. The fabric does not wet out perfectly clear with epoxy. Wet-out clarity of mat with epoxy varies somewhat with different suppliers, but none of them wet out as clear as a good 4 oz or 6 oz fiberglass cloth."
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Old 03-03-2021, 16:45   #47
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
As someone else on these forums said the Gougeon Brothers have done a pretty slick marketing job on promoting their "WEST System" epoxy products. Outside the US of A polyester or vinyl ester resins would be almost exclusively used repairing fiberglass boats.
Epoxy has better adhesion and is more impervious to water.

In addition I would use epoxy just to avoid the smell of polyester.

I have used both Cold Cure (now System3 but originally a local product) and West epoxies since the late 80's without any failure or issue of any kind.
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Old 03-03-2021, 16:53   #48
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Epoxy has better adhesion and is more impervious to water.

In addition I would use epoxy just to avoid the smell of polyester.

I have used both Cold Cure (now System3 but originally a local product) and West epoxies since the late 80's without any failure or issue of any kind.

Most comments on the following thread don't support the use of Epoxy for this type of repair and the Resin Suppliers/Production People certainly wouldn't.

Epoxy vs Polyester or Vinylester Resin
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...in-109688.html
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:01   #49
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Thought I would add...
From epoxyworks.com... "Can WEST SYSTEM® epoxy be used to wet out chopped strand mat? The answer is yes. The fiberglass strand in mat wets out with epoxy, but the binder holding things together does not dissolve. (It does get put into suspension and is sealed in the cured epoxy.) This undissolved binder causes the wet-out mat to remain a bit stiff compared to wet out with a styrene-based resin. For gently curving or flat projects like cabin soles or plywood decks, mat and epoxy should work fine. The fabric does not wet out perfectly clear with epoxy. Wet-out clarity of mat with epoxy varies somewhat with different suppliers, but none of them wet out as clear as a good 4 oz or 6 oz fiberglass cloth."
True for the USA but not for the 8 ounce mat of 1708 because that is stitched without a binder. At least the kind I buy in Florida is.

About 1708 and epoxy: the mat side is great for dealing with print through, almost eliminating it. Just for that 1708 is great. For repairs, it aids in filling rough spots, also great.

For laminating hulls it is used for polyester and vinylester but not for epoxy hulls I think.
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:03   #50
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

Thinwater; yes, used (mostly) itty-bitty rollers for application, then finned roller for non-air entrainment. My resin supplier has only one catalist. When warm.... say 75 degrees, both resin and catalist are quite liquid-y. Used laminating resin and a post-layup covering of 12"x12" plastic "Handi-wrap" from the deli counter....cheaper and easier to work than that specific peel stuff.
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:24   #51
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

Here’s some pictures; 1708 over plywood and 1708 in 3/4” thick laminate. Both are epoxy, either TotalBoat or West, I use whichever is at hand.

It shows 100% wet out, no encapsulated/suspended binders and also a pretty resin efficient laminate, but I cured that under pressure.
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:28   #52
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
Most comments on the following thread don't support the use of Epoxy for this type of repair and the Resin Suppliers/Production People certainly wouldn't.

Epoxy vs Polyester or Vinylester Resin
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...in-109688.html
Maybe so, but no more authoritative than this one.
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:28   #53
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

Jed; yes, that's what mine looks like, tho not 12 or so lams!
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:40   #54
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Jed; yes, that's what mine looks like, tho not 12 or so lams!
There’s also a couple of layers of woven roving in there but you can’t even see them in the cut edges. I believe it was 18 layers, laminated between waxed sheets of polycarbonate with 3/4” plywood and my tool bags on top.
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Old 03-03-2021, 17:45   #55
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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I'm doing my shopping for our haulout next month. We are replacing a few large areas of the deck that are shot and causing sponginess and water leaks in the cabin. Boat is 45' Dufour.

I'm planning on using this lay up over the new core:

1.5oz mat
24oz woven roven
then
1.5oz mat
24 oz woven roven
and then
10 oz cloth to finish

Any ideas on what type of thickness that may deliver?

Is that sufficient or should I add another layer?

Any other suggestions? Planning to order this soon so its on hand before we get in the yard. THANKS!
Wow! bet this thread confused the sh** out of you
If this is just a few areas rather than an entire deck rebuild, dig out the rotten core, re-bed new core (foam or balsa) in a thick bonding putty and slap on four or five layers of whatever E-glass (mat excepted) the local store has on hand. Use vinylester resin as it is simpler, easier, more forgiving and has better secondary bonding properties than polyester.

You are not building structural members or laminating a hull. You are looking for adhesion and compression strength. It's simple work and not nearly as complicated as this thread makes it sound.
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Old 03-03-2021, 18:19   #56
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Wow! bet this thread confused the sh** out of you
If this is just a few areas rather than an entire deck rebuild, dig out the rotten core, re-bed new core (foam or balsa) in a thick bonding putty and slap on four or five layers of whatever E-glass (mat excepted) the local store has on hand. Use vinylester resin as it is simpler, easier, more forgiving and has better secondary bonding properties than polyester.

You are not building structural members or laminating a hull. You are looking for adhesion and compression strength. It's simple work and not nearly as complicated as this thread makes it sound.

This is true. Apologies, theglo, for getting off into a technical discussion. Boat poker is right. You don’t need to worry about what the side discussion is about.
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Old 03-03-2021, 18:19   #57
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Wow! bet this thread confused the sh** out of you
If this is just a few areas rather than an entire deck rebuild, dig out the rotten core, re-bed new core (foam or balsa) in a thick bonding putty and slap on four or five layers of whatever E-glass (mat excepted) the local store has on hand. Use vinylester resin as it is simpler, easier, more forgiving and has better secondary bonding properties than polyester.

You are not building structural members or laminating a hull. You are looking for adhesion and compression strength. It's simple work and not nearly as complicated as this thread makes it sound.
+1

Absolutely! (I am bewildered at the misinformation on the thread also!)
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Old 03-03-2021, 18:22   #58
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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For an accurate description of 1708 go to compositeenvisions.com, a supplier of fiberglass products.

Here they point out that the weight of one yard of 50” width material is about 17 oz... consisting of 17 oz of 45* biaxial roving and 3/4 oz of stitched on mat. Certainly not 1/3 heavier. Thickness is .044”. Suitable for use with polyester resin, vinyl ester resin and epoxy.
Ok, so what does the 08 stand for in 1708 then? 17 oz biax and.... ??

Edit: WHOA!!!!! I just scoured the internet and found that EVERYONE, even various manufacturers disagreed about the mat layer of 1708. I was taught it was 17oz biax and 8 oz mat. Many supplier sites say this too. Many others say it’s .8oz mat. Still others say 3/4 oz mat. It’s crazy there are so many different descriptions. I’m going to go out in a limb here and say I’m wrong on the weight of the mat. .8 and 3/4 are fairly close and outnumber the 8oz references.

In any case, it’s a lot less than 1/3, I think.

It’s still extra weight though.

On a 17,000lb boat, neglecting the core a moment to illustrate, you’d have 800lbs of extra weight using mat from 1708. Using just the biax, you’d have been 800lbs lighter. It makes a big difference in a whole boat. And... if you had a good glass to epoxy ratio of around 50%, you’re looking at 400lbs of extra epoxy, or appropriately $3000 in extra epoxy cost using West System 5 gallon pails at retail.

$3000 extra cost to weigh 800lbs more on a 17,000lbd boat.

Still not wise.
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Old 03-03-2021, 18:38   #59
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

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Originally Posted by DougR View Post
For an accurate description of 1708 go to compositeenvisions.com, a supplier of fiberglass products.

Here they point out that the weight of one yard of 50” width material is about 17 oz... consisting of 17 oz of 45* biaxial roving and 3/4 oz of stitched on mat. Certainly not 1/3 heavier. Thickness is .044”. Suitable for use with polyester resin, vinyl ester resin and epoxy.

I did not explain because I thought that was a known thing. It's right on the page. The mat is very, very thin.

https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...ct-detail/1441
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Old 03-03-2021, 19:27   #60
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Re: How many layers fiberglass on new deck

Straight from TotalBoat. I was right all along. Wow people are all over the place on this one. These people are an authority:

“1708” indicates the weight of each layer. For example, the +/- 45 biaxial weave cloth is 17 oz. per square yard, and the mat backing is 8 oz. per square yard, so the total weight is 25 oz. per square yard.”

https://www.totalboat.com/product/17...erglass-cloth/

So the numbers are MUCH worse than I posted above.

Mat is a full 1/3 the weight of the laminate. Ouch.

So back to the 17,000lbs boat. Well, it’s now 25,000lbs because you used 1708 instead of 17oz biax. 8000lbs of additional weight!! 1/3 of the weight unnecessary. And worse yet, let’s look at the money wasted. 4000 lbs of epoxy or close to 100 gallons. That’s $6000 wasted in epoxy to be 8000lbs overweight. Yikes!!!

Many here misunderstood as did many, many retailers.

Had me thinking I was nuts.
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