How big of a pita is this job?

[Jcolman]

I need to replace and / or re-bed my handrails. Both sides are leaking water into the boat and creating stains on the exterior. I don't have any pics of the actual stains but these photos show the inner and outer rails. The biggest issue I see is somehow dealing with the head liner.

I'm open to suggestions as to how best to proceed.

[Bleemus]

One side will have bungs. Remove them. Remove the screws underneath. Remove rails. Rebed with butyl tape. Replace screws. New bungs. Sand and finish. Done.

[Jcolman]

Originally Posted by Bleemus

One side will have bungs. Remove them. Remove the screws underneath. Remove rails. Rebed with butyl tape. Replace screws. New bungs. Sand and finish. Done.

Thanks. I'll have to drill out most of the bungs as they are wedged in tight but I can always replace them. When you say "rebed with butyl tape" do you mean wrap the screws in butyl?

Nevermind.....I did a little research and found the answer. Thanks for your help!

[Cheechako]

Those may have bolts going from the outside handrails thru to the inside handrails. At any rate, You need to rebed the outside ones for sure. An easy way to get bungs out is to use a Sheet Metal Screw and drill. Screw it into the center of a bung, when it hits the underlying bolt or screw it pushes the bung out cleanly. It helps to centerpunch the center of the bung first unless you are good at keeping things accurate.

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by Jcolman

I need to replace and / or re-bed my handrails. Both sides are leaking water into the boat and creating stains on the exterior. I don't have any pics of the actual stains but these photos show the inner and outer rails. The biggest issue I see is somehow dealing with the head liner.

I'm open to suggestions as to how best to proceed.

I have done this job.It is not so bad. i replaced the on deck rails with Stainless. A lot less wood to look after! If they have been leaking the core may be wet. Means making the holes bigger and filling with epoxy. If you have to do this consider putting in a T bolt or an L shaped one epoxy them in then you have a lot less holes in the deck.

[ontherocks83]

***Buy Bed-It Butyl Tape*** Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Here is a link to a members website that sells it. His articles explain how to properly install it too.

[Jcolman]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

***Buy Bed-It Butyl Tape*** Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Here is a link to a members website that sells it. His articles explain how to properly install it too.

Thanks! Just sent in my order.

[Bleemus]

Originally Posted by ontherocks83

***Buy Bed-It Butyl Tape*** Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

Here is a link to a members website that sells it. His articles explain how to properly install it too.

That is the best butyl tape you can get. Good choice.

[UNCIVILIZED]

How big of a pain this job will be depends on your mostly on your mindset. It needn't be overly tough in most cases, but it requires thinking things through first, along with a bit of study on your part.

Also, any practice you can do on things in a non/less visible area, or on other materials that aren't part of the boat would be wise. That way the steep part of the learning curve is done on disposable materials. And it's something that even many very experienced guys do. It saves time, materials, & goofs, in the long run. Plus you wind up with a prettier finished product.

BTW, I'd second the idea of switching to metal handrails. Not just in order to cut down on the amount of wood needing caring for, but for peace of mind in having rot proof handrails. And if you don't do this, then I'd suggest sealing & varnishing the handrails when they're off of the boat. It makes the job MUCH easier. Both for the inside & outside rails.

Also, for removing the wooden bungs/plugs, try an icepick & they should come out pretty cleanly & easily. If not, then try more aggressive methods. Drilling sounds better, but I didn't listen to the icepick advice for quite a while, & when I tried it, it was superior to drilling. Especially as it's tough to center a drill bit precisely overtop of a bung in order to drill it out. And often, it rarely results in a clean removal of the plug.

Once you have the rails off you'll want to check the deck core for moisture, & if there's much wet core, then you may have a bigger job ahead of you. So read up on deck cores/soggy decks prior to beginning the handrail job.
Though sometimes fixing it is as simple as putting an allen wrench into the chuck of a drill, & using it to remove the bad core between the deck's skins in the area around the hole. Think of it as an improvised, sideways grinder for spots that you can't reach. Then you can quite easily fill in the area of removed core with epoxy, when you're epoxy bonding the handrail's bolts in (below).

Assuming that things aren't serious in the deck's core, then you'll be wanting to put an epoxy annulus around each bolt to prevent future water intrusion into the core. As well as to give the bolts something more incompressible to cinch down against. And usually you want a minimum of 1/8" of solid epoxy around the circumference of the bolt. Though larger is better, especially as it's common to goof a bit when redrilling the bolt holes, thus leaving yourself less epoxy on all sides of the fastener. So I usually drill them as big as I can get away with & still have things being as easy to cover cosmetically as is possible. Like a hole that's the width of the base of the handrails.

There's good information on how to do this kind of thing on the WEST System site. Both in their epoxy user guides, & in the (free) book The Gougeon Brothers On Boat Construction. Download both. And there's loads of other info on the website, including on hardware bonding (as you're doing with the handrail bolts).

To make things simple, drill oversized holes for the bolts up from the bottom, making them significantly large than the bolts. Then seal them over with tape, & fill with epoxy from the top. This, after you've drilled them slightly oversized on top as well. And once the epoxy cures, you can redrill them for the handrail's bolts. Then bed the handrails/bolts as you reattach things.


BTW, another option for bedding fasteners is to drill oversized holes for them, followed by bonding pieces of G10 into the holes from below. And then adding your backing plates, or belowdecks hardware overtop of the G10 plugs.
Which, you can pre-make some very nice "backing plates" on a bench top. To include things like using a laminate of both thin veneers of wood/plywood, & E-glass. So that you wind up with some gorgeous, very strong, backers, when it's done right.

Edit: On your "headliner", it looks as if you actually don't have one. As the bolts around the base of the mast aren't hidden underneath of any liner. So you should be able to do all of the above work without any true headliner issues. Just judiciously tape off around all of the areas you're working in before getting started.

[Jcolman]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

How big of a pain this job will be depends on your mostly on your mindset. It needn't be overly tough in most cases, but it requires thinking things through first, along with a bit of study on your part.

Also, any practice you can do on things in a non/less visible area, or on other materials that aren't part of the boat would be wise. That way the steep part of the learning curve is done on disposable materials. And it's something that even many very experienced guys do. It saves time, materials, & goofs, in the long run. Plus you wind up with a prettier finished product.

BTW, I'd second the idea of switching to metal handrails. Not just in order to cut down on the amount of wood needing caring for, but for peace of mind in having rot proof handrails. And if you don't do this, then I'd suggest sealing & varnishing the handrails when they're off of the boat. It makes the job MUCH easier. Both for the inside & outside rails.

Also, for removing the wooden bungs/plugs, try an icepick & they should come out pretty cleanly & easily. If not, then try more aggressive methods. Drilling sounds better, but I didn't listen to the icepick advice for quite a while, & when I tried it, it was superior to drilling. Especially as it's tough to center a drill bit precisely overtop of a bung in order to drill it out. And often, it rarely results in a clean removal of the plug.

Once you have the rails off you'll want to check the deck core for moisture, & if there's much wet core, then you may have a bigger job ahead of you. So read up on deck cores/soggy decks prior to beginning the handrail job.
Though sometimes fixing it is as simple as putting an allen wrench into the chuck of a drill, & using it to remove the bad core between the deck's skins in the area around the hole. Think of it as an improvised, sideways grinder for spots that you can't reach. Then you can quite easily fill in the area of removed core with epoxy, when you're epoxy bonding the handrail's bolts in (below).

Assuming that things aren't serious in the deck's core, then you'll be wanting to put an epoxy annulus around each bolt to prevent future water intrusion into the core. As well as to give the bolts something more incompressible to cinch down against. And usually you want a minimum of 1/8" of solid epoxy around the circumference of the bolt. Though larger is better, especially as it's common to goof a bit when redrilling the bolt holes, thus leaving yourself less epoxy on all sides of the fastener. So I usually drill them as big as I can get away with & still have things being as easy to cover cosmetically as is possible. Like a hole that's the width of the base of the handrails.

There's good information on how to do this kind of thing on the WEST System site. Both in their epoxy user guides, & in the (free) book The Gougeon Brothers On Boat Construction. Download both. And there's loads of other info on the website, including on hardware bonding (as you're doing with the handrail bolts).

To make things simple, drill oversized holes for the bolts up from the bottom, making them significantly large than the bolts. Then seal them over with tape, & fill with epoxy from the top. This, after you've drilled them slightly oversized on top as well. And once the epoxy cures, you can redrill them for the handrail's bolts. Then bed the handrails/bolts as you reattach things.


BTW, another option for bedding fasteners is to drill oversized holes for them, followed by bonding pieces of G10 into the holes from below. And then adding your backing plates, or belowdecks hardware overtop of the G10 plugs.
Which, you can pre-make some very nice "backing plates" on a bench top. To include things like using a laminate of both thin veneers of wood/plywood, & E-glass. So that you wind up with some gorgeous, very strong, backers, when it's done right.

Edit: On your "headliner", it looks as if you actually don't have one. As the bolts around the base of the mast aren't hidden underneath of any liner. So you should be able to do all of the above work without any true headliner issues. Just judiciously tape off around all of the areas you're working in before getting started.

Thank you for the very detailed explanation! Much appreciated. I've done a bit of reading concerning epoxying the holes and repairing soft decks using the methods you describe. I'm much more of a "monkey see...monkey do" kind of learner though. Hopefully I can muddle my way through this repair job.

I actually do have a headliner as I've had to deal with it when I was fighting the toe rail bolts. The headliner sits flush against the underside of the deck at the mast.

[UNCIVILIZED]

You’re welcome for the description. I know that seeing things being done helps with the learning process, having been raised by teachers. And while I thought of mentioning viewing a few videos earlier, I figured that scaring up a few was only common sense. So you might do so now, in addition to reading some of the tech references on these jobs. Who’s description of how to do it is far more comprehensive than my page of text on the topic. Though at times they do leave out some of the small but helpful tricks of things. Or stumbling blocks that need watching out for.

Anyway, good luck with the job. And know that you’re doing work that probably 9 of 10 owners will never do, nor learn how to. It’s a satisfying feeling to stand back & look at what you built or fixed. Something I’ve always enjoyed.


Edit: You might consider using something other than stainless fasteners, like say bronze. In order to avoid any future crevice corrosion issues.

[Scaramanga F25]

Bungs are removed with a smaller than bung size chisel cut down the middle.

[sailortype]

as uncivilized mentions, removing the bungs with the screw method rarely results in a clean removal. As the bung pops out the unbroken varnish surface (or just friction) pulls chips and splinters out of the fastened piece of wood. I found the ice pick method also works really well.. just a bit of fiddling.

[ramblinrod]

How much a PITA? Depends on how much you enjoy doing this kind of work.

The simplest method is to simply remove the handrails, and rebed. Butyl tape is a good option for this as you may wish to take the handrails off again, for refinishing, and the handrails aren't metal, so you can't use heat to disassemble if bedded with 3M 5200.

A better solution if you have the time and patience is to oversize drill the holes, resin pot, and then redrill clearance holes for the fasteners. This will assure you do not incur deck core damage from subsequent leaks.

I concur that if you currently have wet core, it would be ideal to dry it out, before re-sealing. One method is to tape a heavy plastic sheet over the holes, and tape the nozzle of a blow dryer into a hole in sheet, to set up positive pressure to blow warm air through all the holes. Be sure the set-up you make can't set the boat on fire.

It is also wise to fill the holes with isopropyl alcohol, cover with a piece of tape, and let soak into the wood, then pull the tape off and let dry again (again being careful not to set anything on fire), to help kill any wood rot that may be present.

[Scaramanga F25]

Ice pick does work well indeed.