Horizontal vs vertical windlass

[hsi88]

Looking to add a windlass to my Catalina 30. Not sure which generally works best, a horizontal shaft windlass or vertical. Example of both below:

MARINE HORIZONTAL STAINLESS STEEL ANCHOR WINDLASS 600W 1/4� CHAIN - 1/2" ROPE | eBay

MARINE VERTICAL STAINLESS STEEL ANCHOR WINDLASS 600W 1/4� CHAIN - 1/2" ROPE | eBay

Any advantages of one over the other?

[pcmm]

2 big advantages of a vertical windlass are
1) deck space. They are very compact on deck
2) wrap of the chain. vertical windlass typically have 180deg of chain wrapped around the gypsy, making they very secure. a horizontal only has half the bearing area.

Horizontal windlasses have the advantage that you don't need to cut a big hole through the deck to accommodate either the motor or the shaft of the gearbox.

[mikeo16]

If locating the vertical windlass motor in your vberth area despite your best attempts to seal the holes, there will always be some drippage if you take a wave over the bow. The leakage will not be because of poor sealant but rather the motor shaft can never be 100% sealed. If you are locating the vertical motor inside your anchor well, then you introduce a lot of moisture to the motor and electrical connections which will result in failure over time.

Bottom line: Vertical is much lower profile on your foredeck and more work to install. Horizontal is easier to install as it is all contained in the large unit that sits on your foredeck.

Don't skimp on wire size - the cost to make up wire of appropriate size and run the length of your boat from bow to your batteries will be significant

[LoudMusic]

Jamie and Liz did a video on their windlass replacement process. Here's the bit where they compare the two styles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcTirdV-iTE&t=8m54s

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by pcmm

2 big advantages of a vertical windlass are
1) deck space. They are very compact on deck
2) wrap of the chain. vertical windlass typically have 180deg of chain wrapped around the gypsy, making they very secure. a horizontal only has half the bearing area.

Horizontal windlasses have the advantage that you don't need to cut a big hole through the deck to accommodate either the motor or the shaft of the gearbox.

Yeah, this pretty well sums it up. A Catalina 30 has a tiny foredeck for a horizontal windlass. You must anchor a great deal to want one as I would be inclined to just electrify a winch, unless you have oversized ground tackle or physical limitations.

[GALAWA]

Additional benefit of a vertical windlass:
You can winch up your chain and anchor with a simple winch handle while kneeling on the deck, far more effectively than with a back and forth effort on the lever of a horizontal windlass.

A vertical windlas +winch handle is so effective that on a 30 ' boat you can actually do without an electric motor

[TrentePieds]

You are contemplating 1/4" chain. However, that, IMO, is not sufficient for a Catalina 30, a boat that is quite "windy", as most "cruising boats" are.

For a boat such as that - and for TrentePieds, which is also "windy" - most experienced cruising men will tell you that you need a hook weighing somewhere between 30 and 45 pounds, and that 5/8" chain is required. The reason for that is that "weight on the bottom" is the sine qua non of safe anchoring. The relative efficacy of different types and makes of anchor is a different consideration altogether.

So accepting the wisdom of the ancients, the windlass/capstan you are considering will not do the job. The gypsy - the part of the machine that handles the chain - is size specific. You cannot use 5/8" chain on a 1/4" gypsy. Therefore neither of the machines you show is appropriate. But worry not. The capstan that came with TP when we bought her is a Vetus with a 5/8" gypsy. It's basically worthless when the chips are down, as all these toys are. They can be a convenience, I s'pose, but, IMO, that's all they are.

Under most circumstances handling the ground tackle manually would require you to lift no more than a 45 lb hook plus 20 feet of 5/8" chain weighing 1.15 lb/ft for a total of just under 70 lbs. Even in my geezerhood I can do that, and if I need assistance while the rope rode is still out I simply take the working part of it to a sheet winch. Once the chain comes aboard you can, if you need assistance to get in the last few fathoms, bring it in with a "devil's claw" (a chain hook on a whip that you take to the sheet winch). If you have ten fathoms of chain out, you'd have to reset the claw but once, and it's easier to do that than to struggle with a capstan that's wimping out on you.

A major deficiency of these toy machines is that the spurling pipe (the pipe that takes the rode through the deck) is invariably inadequate. In TP I handle that problem by manually hauling my required length of rode out on deck and faking it down in preparation for dropping the hook. That means, as an unintended consequence, that I always know how much rode is out. That is never immediately obvious when you veer from a capstan or windlass unless your rode is marked every few feet. Weighing, I haul in the rode manually and fake it down on deck and leave it there till the hook is properly catted, and, if required, I've brought the boat clear of all other traffic and other obstacles. Then I go and talk to the capstan and convince it to send the rode below, but by the time we get to the rope/chain splice, we always have to have an argument because of the aforementioned inadequacy of the spurling pipe :-)


Please remember also that if you have to speak sternly to one of these toy machines because it's inadequate for the job, you can easily, if there is still strain on the rode, get your fingers between the chain and the gypsy. If that happens you WILL lose your fingers!



So, as far as I'm concerned it's never the capstan helping me. It is ALWAYS me helping the capstan. That sort of thing is endemic with the kinda gear you are looking at.



TP

[hsi88]

Also looking into 100' of 1/4" G4 chain with another 100' of 1/2 nylon line (maybe more). The chain tied to a 25 lb. Mantus anchor. Have a Danforth style anchor for a backup. Does this sound reasonable for a Cat 30? Everything falls within the limits found on the websites. Will spend most of my time on the Chesapeake, but plan to sail between Nova Scotia and the Caribbean over the next 10+ years.

[hsi88]

You are contemplating 1/4" chain. However, that, IMO, is not sufficient for a Catalina 30, a boat that is quite "windy", as most "cruising boats" are.

Just saw your post. Was hoping if I used the better G4 chain, I could get by with the smaller size. Also, I have no plans to pull the boat with the windlass. So although smaller in size, the windlasses I am looking at would for the most part only be used to stow the chain and pull the anchor up. In the past, if I got stuck on the bottom, I used the boat weight to get it free (when the old back and forth did not work). Of course I was using mostly nylon anchor line back then. If it broke, it broke. Although I was lucky and the anchor always broke free from the bottom. I can't imagine having the chain break and watching it whip across the deck. Not sure I would want to be around for that. :-(

[Scout 30]

I think 5/16 G4 with 5/8 line is a good fit for a Catalina 30. Typically takes a bigger windlass than 1/4" chain & 1/2" line but that's the minimum I'd go with. IMHO 5/8 chain is really overkill for a boat this size & would take a big expensive windlass to handle it. I'd also go with a 33lb Rocna or an equivalent size Mantus or Spade.

[hsi88]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

I think 5/16 G4 with 5/8 line is a good fit for a Catalina 30. Typically takes a bigger windlass than 1/4" chain & 1/2" line but that's the minimum I'd go with. IMHO 5/8 chain is really overkill for a boat this size & would take a big expensive windlass to handle it. I'd also go with a 33lb Rocna or an equivalent size Mantus or Spade.

Equiv Mantus would be the 35 pound. Found a vertical windlass that fits 8MM or 5/16" chain. What would be the minimum length for the chain? Twice the boat length? 60 feet?

[Scout 30]

That's really up to you. A lot depends on where you anchor. A boat length of chain is enough to provide an adequate catenary effect but if you need chain on the ground to keep the line from abrading more chain makes sense. I think it's more mud than rocks where you're at so less chain would work. If the weather kicks up even all chain will be stretched tight so your scope is what's important then. 5/8" 3 strand will have plenty of stretch so that won't be a problem. One thing to keep in mind is you don't want to add a bunch of weight up in the bow on a boat this size.

[LLizzard]

It's usually stated that the Minimum length is 1 to 1.5 x boat length. Considering that's a pretty heavy boat, 60' is what I would use.

[Scout 30]

Be sure to watch for sales at Defender. Sometimes there are some great deals. They're closing out Manson anchors right now.

Marine Vertical Windlass
Manson Supreme Anchor - 35 Lbs

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Equiv Mantus would be the 35 pound. Found a vertical windlass that fits 8MM or 5/16" chain. What would be the minimum length for the chain? Twice the boat length? 60 feet?"

This is beginning to sound reasonable :-) Remember that in "the Maritimes" (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island) the tidal range can be great. Here in the Straits of Georgia at spring tides the range is 16 feet or so. I always set a scope of 7 unless there is a really compelling reason to go shorter. So if I need a scope of seven and I have 3 feet under me at low tide, then at high tide I need (3' + 16' + 3') x 7 = 154 feet of rode, call it 26 fathoms of rode: 10 fathoms of 5/8" chain [60feet, as you say :-)] plus 16 fathoms (say 100 feet) of 1/2" nylon rope will do it. I actually carry 200 feet of rope on the bower. My sheet anchor is a little Fortress I don't really trust - whatever people may tell me ;-) - and it has 200 feet of rope rode. In addition I carry 200 feet of "spare" rode in the bosun's locker.

Scout makes the point that to handle "grown up" gear you need a bigger, more expensive machine than you were looking at. I stand by my point: It ain't worth it. Develop SOPs that will permit you to handle your ground tackle manually OR with existing winches. You've already said that you don't intend to "pull the boat with the windlass". If you don't intend to do that, why would you think you need a windlass at all? I think you'll find that in any event these little toy windlasses will stall and burn out at a far lesser strain than you can exert yourself via a sheet winch and Mr. Armstrong :-)!


TP