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Old 11-05-2017, 18:30   #31
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Thanks for all the replies. Lots to think about. Nothing set in concrete yet but it does sound like as long as I stick with at least G4 (G43) chain, 1/4" will get me by. I like the idea of the 35 pound anchor as well. 35 is still an easily doable weight, even without a windlass. Will probably buy the anchor first and get the bow roller figured out. No hurry on the windlass. But at 61 I know I will have an appreciation for one by the end of the summer.

Not sure how much anchor line to buy. I have a Dansforth anchor now with about 100 feet of 1/2 inch and about 10' of chain. That too can probably get me through the summer. I won't even have the boat in the water for a month or two and have no plans to wander out of the Chesapeake this year.

The expenses are starting to add up as I continue with the work. Had the bottom soda blasted. Money WELL spent. Will be fairing some spots on the hull this weekend and might get a couple of coats of barrier coat applied. Might have the bottom finished in two or three weekends beyond that. Replacing the through hulls at the same time. And going with Pettit Trinidad as the boat will probably stay in the water year round.

Should have the Yanmar 2QM15 running within another weekend and I plan to install a remotely controlled Nissan 9.8 outboard on a permanent mount. Will use the motor mount for storing the dinghy motor down the road, but for now, I really like the idea of having a spare motor. When I splash the boat, I have to travel about 150 miles to get her home. Another motor would provide some insurance and I happen to own one I can use.

The existing sails will make it this season, but new sails are certainly in the plans for next year. Might not buy them all at the same time. I am seeing some variations on code 0 sails that in the light winds of summer could turn a day of motoring into a day of sailing. Time will tell.

Have lots to do with higher priority. Need to get it in the water first. And yes, no hurry to buy a windlass. But the info I got today will certainly influence the anchor I get and for me, a new anchor was on the "do now" list. Making adjustments to a bow roller has to be lots easier while on the hard.

Thanks again everyone!
Bob
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Old 11-05-2017, 18:37   #32
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
You are contemplating 1/4" chain. However, that, IMO, is not sufficient for a Catalina 30, a boat that is quite "windy", as most "cruising boats" are.

For a boat such as that - and for TrentePieds, which is also "windy" - most experienced cruising men will tell you that you need a hook weighing somewhere between 30 and 45 pounds, and that 5/8" chain is required. The reason for that is that "weight on the bottom" is the sine qua non of safe anchoring. The relative efficacy of different types and makes of anchor is a different consideration altogether.

So accepting the wisdom of the ancients, the windlass/capstan you are considering will not do the job. The gypsy - the part of the machine that handles the chain - is size specific. You cannot use 5/8" chain on a 1/4" gypsy. Therefore neither of the machines you show is appropriate. But worry not. The capstan that came with TP when we bought her is a Vetus with a 5/8" gypsy. It's basically worthless when the chips are down, as all these toys are. They can be a convenience, I s'pose, but, IMO, that's all they are.

Under most circumstances handling the ground tackle manually would require you to lift no more than a 45 lb hook plus 20 feet of 5/8" chain weighing 1.15 lb/ft for a total of just under 70 lbs. Even in my geezerhood I can do that, and if I need assistance while the rope rode is still out I simply take the working part of it to a sheet winch. Once the chain comes aboard you can, if you need assistance to get in the last few fathoms, bring it in with a "devil's claw" (a chain hook on a whip that you take to the sheet winch). If you have ten fathoms of chain out, you'd have to reset the claw but once, and it's easier to do that than to struggle with a capstan that's wimping out on you.

A major deficiency of these toy machines is that the spurling pipe (the pipe that takes the rode through the deck) is invariably inadequate. In TP I handle that problem by manually hauling my required length of rode out on deck and faking it down in preparation for dropping the hook. That means, as an unintended consequence, that I always know how much rode is out. That is never immediately obvious when you veer from a capstan or windlass unless your rode is marked every few feet. Weighing, I haul in the rode manually and fake it down on deck and leave it there till the hook is properly catted, and, if required, I've brought the boat clear of all other traffic and other obstacles. Then I go and talk to the capstan and convince it to send the rode below, but by the time we get to the rope/chain splice, we always have to have an argument because of the aforementioned inadequacy of the spurling pipe :-)


Please remember also that if you have to speak sternly to one of these toy machines because it's inadequate for the job, you can easily, if there is still strain on the rode, get your fingers between the chain and the gypsy. If that happens you WILL lose your fingers!



So, as far as I'm concerned it's never the capstan helping me. It is ALWAYS me helping the capstan. That sort of thing is endemic with the kinda gear you are looking at.



TP
You sure you don't mean 5/16"?

5/8" is way overkill for Catalina 30. 1/4" would be OK but 5/16" better. Even 3/8" would be heavier chain than necessary.
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Old 11-05-2017, 18:57   #33
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Quote: "PS Understood about the 5/8 vs 5/16 exchange... I considered that, but when you did it in two different posts I thought you really meant 5/8!

You sure about that ;-0)? High time I get myself a braille monitor so I'll be able to proofread effectively. Do they do charts in braille? The optician sez "go get it fixed". So I'm really quite curious about what the ophthalmologist will have to say.

But, yes, you and others make valid points about safety. I made a point of telling the OP to mind his fingers. I'll not let MyBeloved handle the weighing because she doesn't have the physical strength to safely haul in manually, and I'll not let her near OUR working gypsy (there may others that aren't as prone to biting!). Now, what she IS good at (by now) is driving while I haul and fake the rode on deck. Remember we only have about 35 fathoms in all. So for US, in the waters and the weather where we sail, that is the optimal SOP. Others, of course, sail in different circumstances and need to have SOPs that are appropriate for them.

Cheers

TP
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Old 11-05-2017, 18:57   #34
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Aside from all the argumentst for having a windlass, even on a 30'er, here's a couple more:
If your rode's been in the water for anywhere from a few days (or less), to a few weeks, think about all of the marine life that will come up on it/attached to it. Jellyfish, tiny shrimp, crustaceans; pretty much all manner of critters that can either sting you, bite you, or cut your hands. This in addition to all of ultra-viscous mud coating every bit of your ground tackle.

And when you pull up an anchor by hand, pretty much regardless of how hard you try, you wind up wearing a good percentage of the above crawlies & muck. Which, it then inevitably gets carried back to the cockpit, as well as belowdecks, etc.

Not to mention what happens when in a moment of forgetfulness, you attempt to wipe the sweat off of your face, sweat caused by hauling in the rode. Resulting in lots of stinging, & burning ??? in your eyes & on your face. Which obviously you can't wipe out, as with your slimy, critter covered hands, trying to do so would only make things worse!

So having a windlass certainly helps to contain this mess, & to keep most of it off of you (& the boat). Especially if you install an anchor rode wash down hose up at the bow, & have the luxury of scrubbing your rode as the windlass pulls it in.
Just a "think".

Therefore I ask you, "are you worth it".
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Old 11-05-2017, 20:39   #35
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Not sure about needing a 35lbs anchor with a 30' boat on the Chesapeake. I have a Fortress FX-16 and the scariest night of my life was 35 knots sustained, gusts to 45 at anchor on the Magothy. That thing dug so far into the mud, it was a nightmare to get it back up. There was no chance it was going to let go. Right anchor for the right bottom doesn't alway just mean heavy.
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Old 11-05-2017, 21:15   #36
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbender View Post
Not sure about needing a 35lbs anchor with a 30' boat on the Chesapeake. I have a Fortress FX-16 and the scariest night of my life was 35 knots sustained, gusts to 45 at anchor on the Magothy. That thing dug so far into the mud, it was a nightmare to get it back up. There was no chance it was going to let go. Right anchor for the right bottom doesn't alway just mean heavy.
Completely different calculations for a Fortress due to the large flukes & very light weight alloy metal. They have massive holding power but don't trust them in a wind shift. For a good nights sleep I'd choose something else.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:26   #37
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

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Originally Posted by Scout 30 View Post
Completely different calculations for a Fortress due to the large flukes & very light weight alloy metal. They have massive holding power but don't trust them in a wind shift. For a good nights sleep I'd choose something else.


I sleep like a baby No issues with wind shift here.
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Old 14-06-2017, 19:53   #38
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Just a followup. I ended up with a Quick Crystal 1000 800W 12v Vertical Windlass. Got it delivered today. Is actually a thing of beauty. Got to love the Italians for making things look great. Way heavier than I expected. Its got a reputation as a stump puller in its size range. Completely sealed motor. They have been discontinued in place of the Prince DP2E 1000 which is basically a twin but with an all stainless steel base for $1450. I paid $1000 less and most of the components, like the motor are exactly the same. Feel pretty good about the purchase. Its brand new in the original box shipped directly from the Quick company. Going to use 1/4" G4 chain with my 35 pound Rocna copy. Will let you all know how it turns out. Will be a while before I get it installed on my Catalina 30. Lots of projects in front of this one. No big trips planned. Thanks again for all the input.
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Old 14-06-2017, 20:04   #39
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Quote:
Originally Posted by hsi88 View Post
Just a followup. I ended up with a Quick Crystal 1000 800W 12v Vertical Windlass. Got it delivered today. Is actually a thing of beauty. Got to love the Italians for making things look great. Way heavier than I expected. Its got a reputation as a stump puller in its size range. Completely sealed motor. They have been discontinued in place of the Prince DP2E 1000 which is basically a twin but with an all stainless steel base for $1450. I paid $1000 less and most of the components, like the motor are exactly the same. Feel pretty good about the purchase. Its brand new in the original box shipped directly from the Quick company. Going to use 1/4" G4 chain with my 35 pound Rocna copy. Will let you all know how it turns out. Will be a while before I get it installed on my Catalina 30. Lots of projects in front of this one. No big trips planned. Thanks again for all the input.
Rocna copy? What anchor do you have?
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Old 14-06-2017, 20:08   #40
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Please share your install details. I want to to put one on my Catalina 30 too. Where exactly do plan on putting it?
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Old 14-06-2017, 20:29   #41
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

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Rocna copy? What anchor do you have?
Here is a picture of the windlass (factory pic). Not sure yet how I will install it. Several options. And some pics of the anchor I picked up. Both items seem well built. Here is a link for the company that sells the anchors. Got a 35 pounder for $200. MarineNow
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Old 25-06-2017, 03:50   #42
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Here is what I have. The motor has failed about 5 anchorages after being repaired. It's a South Pacific Industries Pro 900 (aus)



It's pretty compact (shame it doesn't work). Why is that vertical windlasses have masses of mass below the deck? Surely gearing means the gypsy and motor could be at angle angle desired by the designer.
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Old 25-06-2017, 05:12   #43
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Thanks to the link from hsi88 I have a new anchor - the 10kg version @ $149. The claw it replaces is in the wheelbarrow, heading home to my garage. I have a 5kg claw in the hold, so I don't need 3 anchors for local cruising.

I've also attached an action vid of the horizontal Lewmar windlass I installed last summer.
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Old 25-06-2017, 12:48   #44
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Re: Horizontal vs vertical windlass

Would go with a vertical with a chain gypsy AND a rope drum. Think you'll regret cheating out for the little difference in cost for the addition of the rope drum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hsi88 View Post
Here is a picture of the windlass (factory pic). Not sure yet how I will install it. Several options. And some pics of the anchor I picked up. Both items seem well built. Here is a link for the company that sells the anchors. Got a 35 pounder for $200. MarineNow
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Attachment 149927

Attachment 149928
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