Help, stuck on deck!

[tinkrman69]

Hi check that the blocks entering the master not against the deck ring if so remove them. you can take a very thin putty knife and use it to cut the caulk underneath the flange drive it in and work it along. the true vault that was talked about I believe is what's called a panting rod keeps the deck from bouncing up and down as tension is put on the shrouds.

Good luck

[ArmySailor]

Alrighty Team - Mission accomplished! Special thanks to a Warthog Driver, Ann, Scubaseas, Rob, and Ron. You were very helpful! Greatly appreciate it.

It was a combination of the wedges still in place AND 5200. I'm a knucklehead for not removing the wedges. "Work smarter not harder".

some notes of potential interest:

- I labeled the wedges with markers, from 1 thru 8 going clockwise from bow. I also made a mark on the mast itself to show where each was placed

-The mast isn't centered! That is a little surprising. Is that normal?

-The balsa core of the deck was epoxied over and looked great at all angles, one small area of black but it was bone dry and appeared still epoxied. I applied a layer of epoxy over the entire edge of the deck anyway.

-cleaning the aluminum plate upside down was an absolute bastard. I used a dremel with various attachments to experiment how to get that red gunk off. The deck where I need to put butyl down, although mostly clean, is very uneven. Chunks of gelcoat came off with the gunk. It's a mess. I *think* I'm going to have to put a layer of thickened epoxy down to resurface the deck, then fare it flat to get a good seal with sealant. I'm still reading up if that's required or if I can put enough down it will smash into all the small and uneven crevices. Any recommendations? I'm no epoxy master and don't have a lot of tools (like a sander). So i'd love to just show up tomorrow, clean, acetone, then lay tape and smash'r back down!

We'll see though. Photos attached. Thanks again!

Oh yeah, in one photo there is what looks like two identical decks. It looks like the white headliner of the vessel is built similar to the deck. A Some kind of double-core thing going on. Strange!

By the way, this is a Shannon 28, 1979, bull number 9, cutter rigged. So far, besides stuff that the PO neglected (which is a lot), she's incredibly well built.

-Gene

[ArmySailor]

Edit - APACHE Driver. Not Warthog.

It was a long day at the boat

[a64pilot]

That red stuff appears to be high temp silicone, or it could be, but most likely isn’t aircraft fuel tank sealer. Being real difficult to remove is what makes me think it could be fuel tank sealer, which is a sealer that exceeds even 5200 for tenacity.

From what I see Butyl will seal the area, advantage of butyl from my little knowledge is that it never sets up and remains flexible, so the bond if broken will “heal”.

As far as mast being centered, I don’t think it’s real relevant, being off centered a small amount surely is so little an angle change it would not matter.
I’d reinstall them as removed as I don’t think you want to adjust the shrouds?

However I’m no sailboat guy, just a mechanic so I’m often wrong on sailboat specific stuff like this is.

My deck plate has a thru bolt thu the mast, which I was told was pretty normal. It’s purpose as I understand it is to dump the loads of lines that are attached to the plate into the mast. When you tighten the lines of the plate is just attached to the deck, then your trying to pull the deck up, it if attached to the mast, then your trying to compress the mast.
I’m assuming you have no lines that attach to sheeves attached to that plate, and if so you don’t want to add any sheeves to the plate, unless you reinforce the attachment of the plate

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That red stuff appears to be high temp silicone, or it could be, but most likely isn’t aircraft fuel tank sealer. Being real difficult to remove is what makes me think it could be fuel tank sealer, which is a sealer that exceeds even 5200 for tenacity.

From what I see Butyl will seal the area, advantage of butyl from my little knowledge is that it never sets up and remains flexible, so the bond if broken will “heal”.

As far as mast being centered, I don’t think it’s real relevant, being off centered a small amount surely is so little an angle change it would not matter.
I’d reinstall them as removed as I don’t think you want to adjust the shrouds?

However I’m no sailboat guy, just a mechanic so I’m often wrong on sailboat specific stuff like this is.

My deck plate has a thru bolt thu the mast, which I was told was pretty normal. It’s purpose as I understand it is to dump the loads of lines that are attached to the plate into the mast. When you tighten the lines of the plate is just attached to the deck, then your trying to pull the deck up, it if attached to the mast, then your trying to compress the mast.
I’m assuming you have no lines that attach to sheeves attached to that plate, and if so you don’t want to add any sheeves to the plate, unless you reinforce the attachment of the plate

Yeah, or it could be the "mahogany" colored 5200. I dont know if they even make that anymore, but used to , and it's quite red.

[Sparx]

Congratulations on getting the plate up. I have been following this thread just to watch the adventure unfold.

Now that the collar plate is up the repair can be better imagined. Allow me to suggest building up the area under the collar to 1/4" or more above the deck using fiberglass and epoxy. This will encourage water to run away from under the mast collar instead of under the collar and into the boat. With such a raised surface sealing will be very much simplified. Before doing this verify the core under the collar is sound and not wet. If rotted the core should also be removed and replaced, obviously. An angle grinder and steady hand will make quick work of this task, should the work be required.

[Scubaseas]

You may want to consider using a tension rod that runs from the mast step or base plate up through the deck and mast collar if you are going to use the slots on the collar for vangs, pulleys, reefing or control lines led aft to the cockpit, etc..


Rubber mast wedges are kinder to your mast when the boat is getting the snot beat out of it. Rig Rite, Rigging Only have them. You install the aft most wedge, run a line to your sheet winches, crank the mast aft really tight and the shim wedges at the front of the mast. Side wedges can then get lightly pounded in with liquid soap on them

[Madehn]

i would clean surface by putting a sanding head on an occillating sander like the fein tool or the 29 dollar harbor freight knockoff to get the worst of the crap off, then wipe both surfaces down with acetone- wait a couple of minutes and layer in plenty of butyl tape-- cinch it down tight and let it sit overnight to squeeze out some excess then tighten again. should work out well for you. 5200 is a great adhesive and a good sealant but there is a reason it is called "the devils glue" . Incidentaly it is real easy to use thickened epoxy just experiment but it is not suitable as a sealant as it is very brittle- i know you were not going to use it as a sealant but there is no need to get your surface tthat smooth- the butyl will fill in any gaps.

[mlydon]

Sorry to be late to the thread, but in the interest of potentially helping the next guy, I’ve had good luck getting 5200-bedded hardware up by heating up a 1” putty knife up with a torch (just the tip, and very hot), then shoving it into the calk, a bit at a time. It kind of melts/burns the caulk, and you slowly ‘cut’ the piece free

Also, butyl works great, but make sure both surfaces are dead clean to get a good seal.

Matt

[blubaju]

Heat, 60°C will soften many sealant/glue too, higher than 80° will be dangerous to polyester+epoxy, so be carefull. I got this hint when i called my sealant producers technical service, the PU- sealant can only be removed mechanically or softened by heat.

As Aluminum was glued, similar to your mast collar, heat was the solution. Used a heat gun set on very high temperature and be QUICK!

My solution for me, no recommendation ;-)

[ArmySailor]

Originally Posted by Scubaseas

You may want to consider using a tension rod that runs from the mast step or base plate up through the deck and mast collar if you are going to use the slots on the collar for vangs, pulleys, reefing or control lines led aft to the cockpit, etc..


Rubber mast wedges are kinder to your mast when the boat is getting the snot beat out of it. Rig Rite, Rigging Only have them. You install the aft most wedge, run a line to your sheet winches, crank the mast aft really tight and the shim wedges at the front of the mast. Side wedges can then get lightly pounded in with liquid soap on them

I have no idea how to rig a tension rod. If it involves drill a hole in the mast I'm going to hold off. I'm not so sure about my skill level at that kind of thing.



A little skeptical of the rubber mast wedges though. If both wedges are *so* tight they require a little pounding to be seated, it sounds like the mast won't move much (and probably shouldn't, to reduce dynamic loads, right?) what's the logic behind rubber being superior to rubber? (i'm assuming it's very firm rubber....like a wedge door stop or something? )



I guess if I had to start from scratch I'd get rubber, but is it worth a bunch of $17 dollar wedges and shipping to replace. Just being my normal skeptical self, outloud

[ArmySailor]

Originally Posted by Sparx

Congratulations on getting the plate up. I have been following this thread just to watch the adventure unfold.

Now that the collar plate is up the repair can be better imagined. Allow me to suggest building up the area under the collar to 1/4" or more above the deck using fiberglass and epoxy. This will encourage water to run away from under the mast collar instead of under the collar and into the boat. With such a raised surface sealing will be very much simplified. Before doing this verify the core under the collar is sound and not wet. If rotted the core should also be removed and replaced, obviously. An angle grinder and steady hand will make quick work of this task, should the work be required.

The core is solid, and I put another layer of epoxy on the inside of everything exposed. The deck is actually sloped away on all sides. The deck isn't flat it almost goes to a very, very gentle hill around the mast. The mast collar seal was just THAT bad that any rainwater driven by wind, etc, would trickle in very slowly. Next time I'm there I'll try and take a photo sideways, deck level.

[ArmySailor]

Originally Posted by Madehn

i would clean surface by putting a sanding head on an occillating sander like the fein tool or the 29 dollar harbor freight knockoff to get the worst of the crap off, then wipe both surfaces down with acetone- wait a couple of minutes and layer in plenty of butyl tape-- cinch it down tight and let it sit overnight to squeeze out some excess then tighten again. should work out well for you. 5200 is a great adhesive and a good sealant but there is a reason it is called "the devils glue" . Incidentaly it is real easy to use thickened epoxy just experiment but it is not suitable as a sealant as it is very brittle- i know you were not going to use it as a sealant but there is no need to get your surface tthat smooth- the butyl will fill in any gaps.

To clean the deck, I ended up using an 80grit sanding wheel on my dremel - it made short work of anything there and I accidentally hit fiberglass twice. :X after that I blew all dust out of the area, cleaned with acetone and a rag, then layered a ton of lifecaulk down. I decided against butyl at the last minute because this collar does have to be load bearing - my turning blocks that bring halyards to the cockpit (not going into that debate, it works great for me!) put load upwards on this thing. I wanted polysulfide to provide both sealant and adhesive qualities. Butyl, I think, isn't as good as an adhesive. More like a really good sealant, given other mechanism of adhesion (ie hardware).



Thoughts? I'll post photos at the bottom.

[ArmySailor]

Originally Posted by ArmySailor

To clean the deck, I ended up using an 80grit sanding wheel on my dremel - it made short work of anything there and I accidentally hit fiberglass twice. :X after that I blew all dust out of the area, cleaned with acetone and a rag, then layered a ton of lifecaulk down. I decided against butyl at the last minute because this collar does have to be load bearing - my turning blocks that bring halyards to the cockpit (not going into that debate, it works great for me!) put load upwards on this thing. I wanted polysulfide to provide both sealant and adhesive qualities. Butyl, I think, isn't as good as an adhesive. More like a really good sealant, given other mechanism of adhesion (ie hardware).



Thoughts? I'll post photos at the bottom.

Photos

[ArmySailor]

Originally Posted by ArmySailor

PhotosAttachment 188422Attachment 188423Attachment 188424

Any objection to painting this thing white, by the way? It gets dang hot in the summer. It's mostly covered by a boot, and nice uv boot cover. But thinking about the flat area on bottom and where hardware attaches, I kinda think the whole thing being white my look nice