Hard or Soft Bottom Paint

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Not mistaking it for anything else and certainly not losing any work because of it. Maybe it works just fine in whatever part of the world you do your boating in but I guarantee almost no one is using it here. With good reason.

You seem to be in San Francisco, here's a link to others in your area who are using it quite successfully

Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling - SailNet Community

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

You seem to be in San Francisco, here's a link to others in your area who are using it quite successfully

Copper sheeting & CopperCoat anti-fouling - SailNet Community

I suspect you didn't even read the thread that you claim as proof of your position on CopperCoat. If you had read it you'd know at least two things:

1.- I posted in that thread oh, I don't know- 10 or 20 times, making me very familiar with its content.

2.- Contrary to your claim, there is no one in the thread who keeps a boat on San Francisco Bay that uses the product in question.

As I said before, maybe you've actually had a good experience with it. I have not and I have photographic evidence of that. All you have is an unsubstantiated opinion and a failed attempt to prove me wrong.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

I suspect you didn't even read the thread that you claim as proof of your position on CopperCoat. If you had read it you'd know at least two things:

1.- I posted in that thread oh, I don't know- 10 or 20 times, making me very familiar with its content.

2.- Contrary to your claim, there is no one in the thread who keeps a boat on San Francisco Bay that uses the product in question.

As I said before, maybe you've actually had a good experience with it. I have not and I have photographic evidence of that. All you have is an unsubstantiated opinion and a failed attempt to prove me wrong.

gee's touchy I wasn't claiming anything. I just thought you might be interest in the link and the couple from San Francisco who like the stuff.

[model 10]

There is the Tayana 37 type boat sitting front and center at the Napa Valley Marina that has a perfect looking copper bottom job.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

gee's touchy I wasn't claiming anything. I just thought you might be interest in the link and the couple from San Francisco who like the stuff.

Except again, they aren't from San Francisco and they don't keep a boat here

[Schooner Chandlery]

How long does one have to be "from San Francisco" and "keep a boat here" to qualify?

I don't think the Coppercoat effectiveness question is as much about the material itself as the proper application of the material.

We've had Coppercoat on our bottom since our re-launch in spring 2009. I applied it myself in the yard in SoCal, spent a year sailing around down there with it, came to Napa Valley Marina in May 2010 to raise the waterline a couple inches (used a boot stripe of Petit Vivid). Spent 6/2010-8/2010 here (no problems with the bottom paint) also spent 11/2011-12/2012 in Redwood City (SF Bay) and the only problems down there were mud in the currents would stick to the forward port on one tide cycle and then the next the aft starboard side of the hull--so had about 1" of mud to get off those parts of the hull every 4 or so months. Things can grow in mud. Not a good plan to only do the hull every few months with all that mud in the water.

Was in the Bay 12/2013-2/2014, then more sailing elsewhere. Then here from 12/2014-8/2015 and just now leaving the Bay area again. The Bay area isn't a problem for fouling of Coppercoat. The most challenging conditions we've had were in SE Alaska -- strangely fertile waters up there. We were also moving alot and found our waterline could pick up seagrasses (see below) when sailing in good ocean waters --and in Alaska.

The Coppercoat has worked great for us for...what's that...a bit over 6-1/2 years. We're a wood boat so we do haul out every couple years to look everything over. With the 2010 raise of waterline and then in 10/2013 we hauled out to take off the Petit Vivid bootstripe (what we raised the waterline with) and to replace that with just Coppercoat instead--so now no bootstripe, just bottom paint. At that time in 10/2013 we did a touch up of Coppercoat on a few of the wood parts of the keel/deadwood (those parts are really old tar-soaked oak and have cracks containing a soft filler that really doesn't hold the Coppercoat the same way as the other mahogany planking or the lead keel do. Also--the bronze stern tube and bronze rudder stock were re-primed and re-painted as they weren't holding the Coppercoat either. That is likely my own application problem, not the materials though.

There's also a too-close area in the prop aperture above the prop where the prop wash thins the bottom paint--it was down to the wood in a tiny (like 2"x1") area and thinner around that, so I applied more Coppercoat there too.

So--our experience is that the paint lasts well for 6-1/2 years (right now) on the solid planking, but we expect to haul out every third year indefinitely to make sure wood parts of keel, bronze, and that close area above the prop aperture are well coated. Our next haulout is planned for Fall 2016.

We also note--when you go to an area with a lot of iron compounds in the water, you can experience an inert (black in color) oxide rather than the active green copper oxides that are required for antifouling to work. Including 2012 year in Redwood City, we've spent a total of about 20 months in dirty mud-filled waters and have observed this whenever we're in such waters for more than a couple months. The black oxide must be scrubbed off in order to reveal the active green oxides. We experienced the same black oxide in a bay in British Columbia where a sulfur compound from nearby hotsprings running into the anchorage made the water smelly. Our galvanized chain came out shiny like new (where galvanized) and black (where galvanizing was gone) and the entire coppercoat hull turned black -- and we were only there 17 hours!

Application -- We paid attention to what the folks at Aquarius Marine (maker of Coppercoat) told us about keeping the mixture stirred constantly as we applied it. The copper is heavy and can easily settle to the bottom of the pan so you're in danger of having areas where you're applying just the carrier (a water-based epoxy) rather than the proper mix of copper powder and carrier. If you do this, you're going to get growth. If you put it on too thick, the same problem happens. There are also other little things that could make a bad application of the Coppercoat and reduce its effectiveness to basically nothing. So, application is everything with this product. A few places I did "touch up" on that keel in 2010 would have growth on them (we'd note when diving on the boat). When we looked at the hull in 2013 haulout, we saw that the edges of the touch up where white and had no copper on those edges -- I'd used a brush for those touchups not a roller and the copper coat was thicker in those areas and somehow the copper wasn't in those thick edges of the paint. In other touch up areas, I'd taped the area off and used a roller for even application, all the way to the edge. They were prefect in antifoul behavior and color.

So--apply it per the instructions, pay attention, and it seems to work just fine. It does not work as well in the beginning months as it does after a couple years. The lower leach rate does seem to mean you won't have that instant "ah, it's great" thing going. I'd think someone who applied Coppercoat and then didn't clean their hull for a year might (MIGHT) end up with a lot of growth. But, maybe not.

Grasses-- we've not had problems with other things, but we can pick up grasses on the hull if we're ocean traveling for more than a few days. Here along the Pacific coast, we've noticed its the side towards the shore that picks up the grass. Go figure. Go north, it's starboard side, Go south, it's port that gets the grass. We've just come to expect that we're going to take the dingy to the bow of the boat after a long trip an use a scrubber on the waterline. The grasses show up after about 4 or 5 days as green fuzz and if you let it stay it turns into little bits of...grass...but only if you've been sailing for several days out in the ocean (or so it seems, Alaska), but not in the San Francisco Bay

If anyone else is interested in Coppercoat feel free to PM me
-- Brenda

[Cheechako]

OK... so for you copper coat users, or those with actual copper plating, Do you experience growth but it dies or do you not experience growth at all?
My complaint with bottom paint (since it was made mostly ineffective by law) is that yes... it kills barnacles, but no, doesn't prevent them from growing on the hull before they actually die. Some to 3/8" diameter or larger.
So the question I have is does it grow on Copper Coat at all?
I have assumed that the copper (Trinidad is something like 70%) is a slow killer but not a "discouraging growth" agent. This seemed obvious to me with the change in paints. In comparison, the Dutch paint I put on in Trini years ago eliminated all growth for two years except just a very light slime.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

OK... so for you copper coat users, or those with actual copper plating, Do you experience growth but it dies or do you not experience growth at all?
My complaint with bottom paint (since it was made mostly ineffective by law) is that yes... it kills barnacles, but no, doesn't prevent them from growing on the hull before they actually die. Some to 3/8" diameter or larger.
So the question I have is does it grow on Copper Coat at all?
I have assumed that the copper (Trinidad is something like 70%) is a slow killer but not a "discouraging growth" agent. This seemed obvious to me with the change in paints. In comparison, the Dutch paint I put on in Trini years ago eliminated all growth for two years except just a very light slime.

Except for those underway grasses I mentioned, we don't get anything but maybe a little fuzzy green slimy that doesn't require scrubbing. Where the Coppercoat was no longer on the hull (bronze it didn't stay on and a couple of those areas on the wood keel) we would get growth of jelly-like things and tiny little barnacles that certainly would become big if someone just left them there.

The mud we had in the Redwood City currents caked onto the hull in two areas -- that stuff had things growing in it after 4 months whereas the parts of the hull that weren't getting hit by those currents didn't have a lot of dirt, slime, mud or anything else. If we were like many of the neighboring boaters who only cleaned their hulls every year or two or 5...we'd have had a lot growing in that mud.

Hope that helps.

[Ewan Clark]

A quick thank-you to the Coppercoat users that have taken the trouble to write about their experiences on this thread and naturally I am pleased to see that you are all happy with your anti-foul choice.


But I should quickly add that although we try our hardest to make it the best we can (both within the law and our own environmental standpoint), it is not a "miracle" product and occasional cleaning should be expected.


In the relatively low-fouling cool waters of northern Europe for example, a once a year clean is generally sufficient for most people. But in warmer water and high fouling locations, such as the Caribbean, Florida etc., additional scrubs may be necessary for some. Indeed, I've chatted to drivers who are very pro-Coppercoat, as instead of the boats being lifted and repainted, they simply stay in the water and are scrubbed - so the divers get more work.


As with any anti-foul, boat location and usage plays a large part in the performance of the product, so its impossible for us to give definitive hard and fast predictions for every individual user. However, if you are the sort of boat owner that thinks that paying a diver to scrub your boat is a better option than paying to have the boat lifted and repainted each year, then Coppercoat might just be the solution you are looking for.

[Rustic Charm]

I'm quite keen on looking at Coppercoat, but the price is my shocker. I'm looking at $200 a litre compared to $82 a litre for the next most expensive of anti fouls..

There is a product that uses heavily impregnated copper called Topflight from Norglass. It's a single pack product but not ablative. It's about $82 a litre. Has anyone used Topflight?

[Abgreenbank]

I paid euro 90 per litre pack 2 months ago in Tenerife used 14 litres on 50ft jeanneau , the major extra cost is removing the old antifouling, The copper coat cost was 25% more than a quote for primer and ablative antifoul, excluding hull preparation.
Regards
Ab


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[C Skip R]

Although copper is important in bottom paint I have found that purchasing a bottle of liquid zinc (I believe made by SeaHawk) and mixing in your paint is absolutely the best. Absolutely no barnacles or slime growth in Fl or Carribean.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by C Skip R

Although copper is important in bottom paint I have found that purchasing a bottle of liquid zinc (I believe made by SeaHawk) and mixing in your paint is absolutely the best. Absolutely no barnacles or slime growth in Fl or Carribean.

That doesn't make much sense. Zinc is a less effective biocide than copper. Plus, Seahawk doesn't sell a zinc additive. They do sell sell an environmentally reprehensible tin addititive however. Also, according to the manufacturer, it should not be used with non-tin paints.

[C Skip R]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

That doesn't make much sense. Zinc is a less effective biocide than copper. Plus, Seahawk doesn't sell a zinc additive. They do sell sell an environmentally reprehensible tin addititive however. Also, according to the manufacturer, it should not be used with non-tin paints.

You are absolutely correct my mistake should have said tin. Great product and works well in I44.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by C Skip R

You are absolutely correct my mistake should have said tin. Great product and works well in I44.

Just to be clear, you cannot buy, or apply, this product in Florida. And it is illegal to have it on your bottom in the US.

Regarding the use of the tin booster (moral and legal issues aside), you are being duped. It is an 8oz bottle containing 40% tin. Only one 8oz jar can be added to one gallon. Doing the math, this provides an increase in tin concentration of 2.5% - giving an increase from the normal 10% to 12.5% (side note to those who haven't considered the facts around this paint - it is a majority normal copper-based paint with a small amount of tin added to it. It is not the tin-based paint of old that people rail against. Just a reality check - I'm not taking a moral or environmental position.).

If that extra 2.5% was really useful, don't you think they would have just made the paint that concentration? That little jar is very expensive - more expensive in tin terms than the paint itself. However, the marketing of it sucks people in daily.

Mark