Groupe Beneteau’s Bad Brass Ball-Valves

[Fluer de Mer]

While exercising all the thru-hull valves on my 4.5 year-old Oceanis, I was surprised to discover that the galley sink drain valve had signs of corrosion and was weeping/seeping water. The valve in question (like all valves on my boat) appears to be Tonval rather than higher quality single metal phosphor bronze. Tonval fittings have OT58, CZ122, or in my boat’s case CW617N embossed on them and contain up to 40% zinc…and per the ABYC standard, they should never be used in below the waterline applications (they corrode from the inside...see below photos). Although the EU standard oddly allows for thru-hulls that have only a “5 year” lifespan, the ABYC does not for good reason (sinking). This is an unusually deficient design on Beneteau’s part and a costly one for owners – who, in my case/geography, are forced to pay up to ~$450 for each new replacement. Separately, Nigel Calder sent me the following message concerning the situation and advised on potential replacements that I thought might be helpful to share: “CW617N is a designation for brass. Unfortunately, with many of these fittings by the time there is external evidence of problems the zinc has been leached out of the fitting leaving a porous matrix which will fracture under any kind of a shock load. If it were me, the next time the boat is out of the water I would give them a good whack with a heavy hammer and see if they shatter! In terms of replacement, pretty much any US seacock will be high-end bronze (Groco is an excellent brand) but I would also replace the through hulls unless you are absolutely certain that what you have is compatible. Another way to go would be Marelon (plastic) from Forespar. No corrosion issues.” In my boat's case, I went with Groco and the boatyard installers shared two interesting points: (1) Beneteau appears to use red Loctite on its fittings which makes it very difficult to remove them (short of just cutting them off), and (2) some newly commissioned Groupe Beneteau boats continue to be delivered with below-the-waterline Tonval brass fittings rather than ABYC approved bronze or composite fittings. What is particularly concerning about all this is that I check and exercise all my thru-hull valves every 4 months and the valve in the photo looked brand-new just last December...they really do insidiously corrode from the inside and you see nothing until you see significant signs of corrosion accompanied with water leaking in through the porous metal. Because of this, I’d urge others to check their thru-hulls and closely monitor them if they are Tonval.

[JPA Cate]

Great catch, Fleur de Mer.

Thank you for the informative post.

Ann

[pcmm]

Also note that they are installed incorrectly too! No bolted flange, just an NPT fitting installed on an NSP thread! How they get away with this I don't know. Usually we give DIY'ers a hard time when they try this. a full seacock (valve, thruhull, tailpiece) for a 1 1/2 will cost you around $150-180 per install + your labour to install. the hard part will be drilling out the liner to make space for the backing plate and flange!

[a64pilot]

An NPT ball valve screwed directly onto a thru hull has been standard practice, for even some quality boats for a long time.
Not saying it’s right, but it is very common.
The downside of a “real” seacock is they can be a bear to replace as the Thru hull and everything is coming out etc.
I learned through here that there is now a better way, Groco now makes an adapter that screws onto a thru hull and replicates if you will a seacock, but has NPT threads on the adapter so you can attach a ball valve, come the day when the ball valve needs replacing, just unscrew it and screw on the new one.
Also you don’t have to drill holes in the hull for the three mounting bolts anymore, Groco sells a backing plate that has inserts in it that you can screw studs into, glass that to the hull and no drilling holes.

I’ve not done that, but it seems be a better mouse trap.
https://www.groco.net/products/fitti...flange-adaptor
https://www.groco.net/products/valve...backing-blocks

A similar, but different backing plate
https://dreamgreen.org/backing-plate...-backing-plate

[hellosailor]

One has to wonder if that particular vampire (Group B's choice if brass balls that inevitably fail young) could be staked by some social networking.

Like a batch of t-shirts loudly proclaiming:
Beneteau's Have Poxy Balls!

Maybe with a nice silk screened pic of said ball in the middle of that.

For a company that has done some outstanding engineering (composite rudder stocks to eliminate stainless failures, maybe 40 years now?) and some interior styling that really broke the mold...really, brass balls? Can't they get past that?

[JPA Cate]

Perhaps brass monkeys are in decline!

Beneteau's accountants (bean counters) will not support going back to quality fittings.

Caveat emptor.

Ann

[hellosailor]

Bean counters are best kept in the storage room, with the beans.

A good bean counter master would say "If we lose one sale per year because someone does not like our brass balls, how many dollars is that? How many bronze balls could we have bought with that lost profit?"

And his corporate counsel might add "And how many more bronze or Marelon fittings could we have bought, with the five million we're going to pay out to the first folks who die from brass ball failure?" Or whatever the costs, simply for salvaging a hull in a sensitive area.

Of course, if Mssr. Beneteau's nephew happens to be in the business of supplying brass balls, counting beans doesn't matter, does it?

[EmeraldCoastSailor]

Just replaced the thru-hull for toilet intake water on my 2009 Beneteau. It wasn't leaking but it was looking pretty bad from a corrosion perspective. I went with Marelon for the replacement.

[Clivevon]

I replaced all my throughhulls & seacocks 5 years ago with TruDesign GRP reinforced nylon fittings. Made in New Zealand. Very sturdy, still working easily & no corrosion worries. their website is here if anyone is interested: https://www.trudesign.nz/marine

[kupo2kupo]

For the record, the Beneteau thru-hulls and valves are not NPT/NPS, but BSP/BSP. They mate well. That does not take away from the other 2 weaknesses: no proper flange, and in particular the material. I owned a 2004 Jeanneau, and had to replace all seacocks in 2013. One hose tail broke off just by applying force by hand. We do now have a 2013 Beneteau, and I had to replace all under the waterline thru-hulls and seacocks in 2018.

Note: J & B use a reinforced plastic (similar to Marelon / Trudesign, but from a French company) seacock for the head discharges.

I still think we have a great boat, this is just something to know and to deal with.

[NYSail]

I bought my 2005 423 a couple of years ago and this was my first observation. I have eliminated a few and will start to replace the remaining ones next year.One of the problems at least with the 423 is that they put these fittings in tight places requiring angles so they could maximize Interior volumn I suppose. Can’t get a proper fitting in the space given for most of them so left with few options..

Greg

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I replaced all my throughhulls & seacocks 5 years ago with TruDesign GRP reinforced nylon fittings. Made in New Zealand. Very sturdy, still working easily & no corrosion worries. their website is here if anyone is interested: https://www.trudesign.nz/marine

Started to replace mine with TruDesign too. The 1.5" valve was £67 ($88) from the local chandlers so certainly wouldn't be paying some of the other prices quoted earlier. I think the BSP/NPT problem is a US issue. Mine are all parallel thread connections.

Pete

[a64pilot]

So the ball valves are brass.
Are the thru hulls also brass? That would be more worrisome I would think

[Gypsy23]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

I replaced all my throughhulls & seacocks 5 years ago with TruDesign GRP reinforced nylon fittings. Made in New Zealand. Very sturdy, still working easily & no corrosion worries. their website is here if anyone is interested: https://www.trudesign.nz/marine

Another vote for Tru-Design fittings. I replaced all my Bav44 thru-hulls and cocks with them after 12yrs, some of the originals were affected by de-zincification, mostly the large ones used for toilet outlets and they were also the cause for change as one cock totally siezed and the others very difficult. It was a handy 'alarm' to take action even though 12 yrs wasn't bad.



I think the thruhulls were DZ brass but they were not bronze.

[kas_1611]

It isn't just Beneteau who are guilty of this but most boat builders.

The EU Recreational Craft Directive, which was intended to improve quality resulted in the use of cheaper brass domestic plumbing fittings being used as they met the minimum requirement of the RCD. A classic case of good intentions and road to hell.

The key marker is the red handle. This normally indicates for Fresh Water use ie Brass. DZR or Corrosion Resistant Brass is normally indicated with a Green handle and the letters CR clearly marked in the body.

Yachting Monthly in the UK ran a big awareness campaign a few years ago about the dangers of these RCD compliant but dangerous brass fittings and has been campaigning to get the standard changed, without much success.

We found our 2010 Bavaria had these same red handled brass valves so took the plunge and when out for antifouling had them all changed to Marelon plastic, with the exception of the engine room seacock which is certified DZR, with a green handle. I check them religiously every year for signs of wear and tear but so far after 5 years they are still as good as new.

Recently spoke to a fellow Bavaria owner who asked me about the seacocks and when I told him red means danger he blanched and got on the phone to order replacements immediately. His boat was the same year as mine so 9 years old with dubious brass fittings.

Moral of the story is check your fittings regularly, don't trust anything with a red handle and make sure you have bungs readily available by all fittings just in case.

Keiron