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Old 10-12-2020, 16:18   #61
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

A “ serious cruising yachtsman “ , so the guy doing Atlantic’s in his Jeanneau 45 obviously isn’t one !!
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Old 10-12-2020, 16:50   #62
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
A “ serious cruising yachtsman “ , so the guy doing Atlantic’s in his Jeanneau 45 obviously isn’t one !!

Some people are gung-ho! How would a fin keel stand up to a grounding or hitting an "underwater object"?

"The facts: surely everybody remembers the keel that some years ago fell off a Bavaria Match 42 and recently all know that an almost new 90ft Oyster lost the keel. Some know about two First 40.7 but less know about a Bavaria 390, a Jeanneau 37, a Vand den Stadt 45, a Sweden yacht 42, a Fast 42 a Maxi 110, a Max Fun 35 or more recently a Comet 45 and some days ago a Davidson 50."


https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...s-falling-off/
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:22   #63
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Full Keel vs Fin Keel

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Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
Some people are gung-ho! How would a fin keel stand up to a grounding or hitting an "underwater object"?

"The facts: surely everybody remembers the keel that some years ago fell off a Bavaria Match 42 and recently all know that an almost new 90ft Oyster lost the keel. Some know about two First 40.7 but less know about a Bavaria 390, a Jeanneau 37, a Vand den Stadt 45, a Sweden yacht 42, a Fast 42 a Maxi 110, a Max Fun 35 or more recently a Comet 45 and some days ago a Davidson 50."


https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...s-falling-off/


Oh for gods sake , not the4-6 examples trotted out of context yet again , the fact that match’s were modified incorrectly

Not to mention that there are zillions of fin keel boats out there compared to the literally handful of full keels

You are taking that article out of its context

“Some of the keels were lost due to the contact with the ground or submerged objects, some due to poor design or poor building like the cases of the Match Bavaria 42, the modified Oyster 825 or the Max Fun 35. Others due to the weakening of the structure as a result of bad maintenance, groundings whose damage passed unnoticed or were improperly repaired while others, like the recent case with the Comet 45, remain a mystery”

The article was basically saying as there are now a lot of ageing fin keeled yachts that it may be necessary to have some regulatory oversight to try and ensure ageing boats meeg some basic maintenance standards. Rather like we have car MOTs etc

It’s not about the instrinsic issue of fin keels.
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:29   #64
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

ah, but then there is this....no question a nice long keel tracks better out on the ocean...you could walk away from the wheel for a period of time, and the boat would steer itself....

A fin keel on the other hand can be quite a handful offshore, require a constant hand at the wheel....

a happy compromise might well be a cutaway forefoot.....

then again, rudder placement is crucial.....attached to the keel....on the stern....with a skeg...without a skeg....a blade....a foil.....a plate...many variables.....

we can banter around on this until the cows come home, but the keel only plays a part in the performance of a boat...it needs to work in tandem with hull shape...displacement...rig type....sail area......etc..etc...etc.....it all needs to be one happy marriage....usually, some aspect of the boat will be a compromise...ie, you can have shallow draft or pointing ability....you can't have both...
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:32   #65
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Again the max fun 35 was simply a case of bad construction not an instrinsic issue

“t was further discovered that the builder had sub-contracted the hollow keel construction to a steel fabricator who had no marine experience. The fabricator changed the original design, and incorporated a fillet weld in a critical area, to ease manufacture and reduce costs, but without the supporting calculations to assess the stresses to which the keel would be subjected (Figure 2). He did not consult on the changes with the designer.”
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:36   #66
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Full Keel vs Fin Keel

[QUOTE=coopec43;3293643]Some people are gung-ho! How would a fin keel stand up to a grounding or hitting an "underwater object"?



How would you grp long keeler fare hitting a partially submerged container just under the waterline given all that inertia !!

We can play the “ selected failure mode” game all day.

Actually I saw a long keel grp , where the leading grp edge of the keel was punctured and the interior of the keel took on water and caused swelling of the ballast , the whole keel needed to be reworked , I lost contact with the yacht around the time the insurance was considering writing the whole yacht off

As for “ Gung ho “ there must be an awful lot of quite middle aged ocean cruising couples with Gung ho” clearly long keel sailors are Beta types
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:45   #67
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Hers another one of your mentioned keel losses
A cape fear

“ ultimately the catalyst for this disaster.
It appears there were multiple groundings of this boat on the ever shifting sand bars in the Gulf. In fact, the boat was reported to have been dragged for some distance to deep water after going aground in the waters off Galveston Bay. A tow like this would have exerted massive torsional loads on the keel and structure of the hull. Yet the boat was not taken out of the water and surveyed for damage even though there was evidence of structural damage to the keel grid. The only repairs that were done were by students who laid up several layers of bi-directional glass onto the faces of floors with very little surface preparation.”

This has nothing to do with fin keels and everything to do with idiocy
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:47   #68
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

These threads always go the same way. People will just post fear stuff and try to suggest fin keels are falling off by the 100s, while they memtion same few over and over.

You know the real reason fin keels are better? Because they made the boat sail and handle better. If you are one to regularly run into stuff it may not be a design for you. But if you got your sailboat to sail, well .....
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Old 10-12-2020, 17:49   #69
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

[QUOTE=goboatingnow;3293670]
Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
Some people are gung-ho! How would a fin keel stand up to a grounding or hitting an "underwater object"?



How would you grp long keeler fare hitting a partially submerged container just under the waterline given all that inertia !!

We can play the “ selected failure mode” game all day.

Actually I saw a long keel grp , where the leading grp edge of the keel was punctured and the interior of the keel took on water and caused swelling of the ballast , the whole keel needed to be reworked , I lost contact with the yacht around the time the insurance was considering writing the whole yacht off

As for “ Gung ho “ there must be an awful lot of quite middle aged ocean cruising couples with Gung ho” clearly long keel sailors are Beta types

A GRP Long keeler would fair a lot better than a fin keel!


Fin Keel Weakness — Rigging Doctor

www.riggingdoctor.com › life-aboard › fin-keel-weakn...

Nov 10, 2016 — Another problem with fin keels is they are not very well protected from impact. They are, by design, a very long lever arm. If you were to strike an underwater object, be it a sunken log or the sea bed, this force is going to be multiplied and then transmitted to the rest of the yacht via a very small area.
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Old 10-12-2020, 18:24   #70
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

I prefer modified fin with skeg hung rudder.
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Old 10-12-2020, 18:34   #71
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

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Originally Posted by wesevans View Post
I prefer modified fin with skeg hung rudder.
Me too!

One thing I know... after owning both the above kind of boat, and now my full-keel boat; after years of being spoiled with these kinds of boats I find it a challenge to on the helm of a nimble fin-keeler.

I'm used to being able to leave my tiller unattended for many minutes at a time. Once trimmed I can go for a stroll around the foredeck, or go down below to make a tea, and the boat will stay on track.

On some fin keelers I've sailed, I take my eyes off the horizon for a few seconds and WHAM! We're off course! It's so sensitive that the slightest movement will send us off.

I guess this is why autohelms have become so essential for cruising.
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Old 10-12-2020, 20:47   #72
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

The boat I have now has a full keel because it was on it when I bought it. The prior boat came with a fin keel.
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Old 10-12-2020, 21:05   #73
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

Safety

There have been several posts about safety and potential damage when running aground

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
Some people are gung-ho! How would a fin keel stand up to a grounding or hitting an "underwater object"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43 View Post
Nov 10, 2016 — Another problem with fin keels is they are not very well protected from impact. They are, by design, a very long lever arm. If you were to strike an underwater object, be it a sunken log or the sea bed, this force is going to be multiplied and then transmitted to the rest of the yacht via a very small area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fireman182 View Post
I wish I had a fin keel when docking and glad I have a full keel when running aground.
But safety is about more than strongest, heaviest, hulls and full keels. If weight and strength were so valuable we all be driving Checker Marathon automobiles.

And the truth is that designers and engineers build fin keels to withstand collisions. I hit a reef going 7.25 knots under power (a reef I knew about but I made a mistake about its location) and it didn't tear off my keel. In fact I was on another fin keel race boat many years ago when it hit Thrasher Reef in BC at speed under spinnaker. That boat's keel was not torn off either. In both cases the damage was minor enough so that we didn't need to immediately haul out. On my boat I lost about a fist full of lead on the front of my keel. On the other hand a Westsail 43 named Danika hit a reef here in Mexico, and I doubt if he was going any faster than either of the two examples I'm referring to.

You can see the damage to Danika in the photo below.

I also hit a log one time, 40' by 1', exactly perpendicular to my course. It hit the bow, the keel, rolled under the keel, fortunately missed the propeller, and hit the rudder. It chipped the bow and the front edge of the keel. No other visible damage. It did however wake up the crew member on watch who was inattentive while we motored a full speed in broad daylight.

And there is safety in being able to go to weather or avoid storms.

SPEED

People don't buy fin keel boats for pure speed, unless they are choosing a boat to race. It's silly to say "I don't need speed so I don't see any benefit to a fin keel boat" People buy fin keel boats because they sail better and feel better while sailing. People who love sailing for nothing more than the sake of it, buy boats which perform well and that's usually fin keels.

The arguments about "tracking" and how they handle down wind don't seem correct to me. I've sailed many boats in offshore conditions, and I'd say there is much benefit in a boat which responds to a powerful, balanced, spade rudder when the crap hits the fan. I've struggled to control an over powered full keel boat in bad weather and it isn't fun spinning that tiny wheel and watching nothing happen. As for tracking and sailing for hours without touching the helm? Pooh! my boat does it too, all the time.

STORAGE

Now storage is an interesting topic. A couple of people have mentioned this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
I also need to carry lots of weight both in boat stuff and personal gear. Traditional designs tend to be good at this and I had the opportunity to get a good one so it works for me. A lightweight fin keeler would not...
I recently worked on a J44 set-up for cruising. It is a great boat, and this one was super well equipped. But I realized I couldn't do with the J44 what I can do with my Serendipity 43 because of lack of storage. I couldn't have a workshop, a Sailrite sailmaker, rolls and rolls of sailcloth, (to say nothing of a dozen sails) and spares for everything. There just wasn't room.

But they were both fin keeled racing boats!

So storage has more to do with the overall design than it does the type of keel, and I agree, it is important.
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Old 10-12-2020, 21:21   #74
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

It would be helpful to hear from Jeff H I think
or just read the "Keel Discussion" thread.
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Old 10-12-2020, 22:33   #75
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Re: Full Keel vs Fin Keel

IMHO, keel selection has little to do with sea keeping, speed, or any other non-lifethreatening issue. Your selection of keel type should rest on whether on not you want your guarantee of stability hundreds of miles at sea to be held on by a few metal bolts, for years and years, in a salt water environment where they cannot be adequately inspected regularly for corrosion.


Other than the need for maximum speed for racers, or cost savings in manufacturing, there is really no reason for a cruising design to have a bolt on keel. There have been many designs with fully encapsulated ballast, with cut-away forefoot or a fin that are quite lively and performance oriented, certainly having fine sailing capabilities.
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