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24-02-2017, 09:01
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#76
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Resin Head
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,205
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
My point is that the world has moved on from polyester to vinylester and it wouldn't do you any harm to move on to vinylester as well, even (or even more so) when used to repair polyester boats. All your arguments for polyester are true for vinylester as well, plus it is factual a superior resin
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Vinylester has most certainly not replaced poly in manufacturing, it's still most commonly used as a barrier. And it has it's own drawbacks, adhesion compatibility being one of them. Did you know most epoxies are not compatible with vinylester resin, unlike poly?
I worked at the first yard to do all vinyl osmotic bottom repair for a long time. We used thousands of gallons of vinylester resin and modified vinylesters like Duratec. Guess what, that yard no longer uses vinylester resin for this, because of too many failures. It's hardly new, we were doing vinyl bottoms 20 years ago.
Vinylester also sucks for repair work, as it's cure cycle is longer than poly. Modern poly iso resin is great stuff, keeps getting better. And not as toxic as epoxy. And has the same mechanical properties as the substrate you are repairing, therefore no hard spots at the bond face of your repair created by a repair which is stiffer than the surrounding laminate.
Crap, there I go wasting my breath again! I know better...
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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24-02-2017, 10:15
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#77
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
My point is that the world has moved on from polyester to vinylester and it wouldn't do you any harm to move on to vinylester as well, even (or even more so) when used to repair polyester boats. All your arguments for polyester are true for vinylester as well, plus it is factual a superior resin
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How?
Polyester has good water impermeability, vinylester better, and epoxy better yet.
For deck repairs, all have water impermeability characteristics, exceeding the needs of the application.
For below the waterline, when epoxy barrier coat is used, all have water impermeability characteristics that exceed the needs of the application.
So what would be the error in logic for a customer to claim I'm gouging them, using a more expensive material than required to meet the needs of the repair?
(As it is, I normally offer the customer the option of epoxy or vinylester. When they ask me how much longer the repair will last for the more expensive materials, and I advise, "all will last the life of the boat", invariably they chose the least expensive solution that will accomplish this. OK, polyester it is.
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24-02-2017, 11:42
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oriental, NC
Boat: None
Posts: 429
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
All of these resins (if you do not buy cheap junk) can provide a good repair.
This is provided the surface is prepped correctly and good practices are maintained. If you are inexperienced, you would do better to ask advice regarding technique. Also, what materials are compatible and most importantly preparation.
Bad prep, bad technique and incompatible materials cannot create a good repair regardless of the resin you choose.
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24-02-2017, 12:03
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 658
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
I've not tried anything new in terms of resin in a while, as I've still got some around from my last bulk purchase. But here are a few links I've run across in just the last few months. The prices range from about $40-$80/gal
OffshoreCatamarans.com Featured Products
MARINE GRADE EPOXY RESIN | East Coast Resin
http://lbifiberglass.com/EPOXRESINS/epoxy.html
Epoxy :Â*Epoxy Resins and Hardeners
And it helps to get to know builders & boat repairers. Both to get a feel for the properties of resin X, or Y prior to buying some. And in that guys who use the stuff in bulk usually get better prices on it.
Plus, if contemplating a big, or critical project, & the resin's an unknown, buy a small quantity, & test it out a bit first. Along with doing as much research on it as possible.
You also want to consider what application it'll be used for, & how critical the resin's performance will be for the job in question. For instance if you're gluing up cored composite panels to build an interior out of, the resin needn't be on par with that used in hull construction of a high tech racer.
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Yeah I have a fair bit of experience with Polyester Epoxy and a little Vinylester, been working with composites for 20 years (first bit paid and the last 10 as a hobby). Most of the yards around me seem to use West, MAS, system 3, or LBI. I can get discounts but that still leaves me around $80 a gallon for the most part. I don't have a need right now just curious, most of what I do is on old cheap boats for myself so polyester is fine. I was considering building a couple canoes at which point saving a little on epoxy would be nice.
__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
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24-02-2017, 12:07
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#80
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 658
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride
Dont talk like a ignorant, because you're not,,visit any pro FRP workshop and you can see how they are still using barrels of poly in lots of aplications, repairs or parts. In my case i can use West or Poly, im not brain sticked to the cheapest resin at all, its amazing the level of ignorance of some posters , for the record many insurance companys dont sign any check if the boat is not repaired using the same OEM materials...
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Oddly this insurance note is true. We would only pay for like kind in materials if you wanted to pay extra for epoxy that was up to you.
__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
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24-02-2017, 12:10
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,425
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin A
Oddly this insurance note is true. We would only pay for like kind in materials if you wanted to pay extra for epoxy that was up to you.
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I wouldn't find this odd. Insurance companies are in the business to make money, not to payout more for a superior job.
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24-02-2017, 12:17
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NZ
Boat: S34 Bob Stewart - 1959 Patiki class. Re--built by me & good mate.
Posts: 1,126
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by FPNC
All of these resins (if you do not buy cheap junk) can provide a good repair.
This is provided the surface is prepped correctly and good practices are maintained. If you are inexperienced, you would do better to ask advice regarding technique. Also, what materials are compatible and most importantly preparation.
Bad prep, bad technique and incompatible materials cannot create a good repair regardless of the resin you choose.
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In a nutshell.
When, for a new application substrate, I always consult with the tech at ATL who have 50yrs of experience in epoxies.
I have had my own failures with poly in the seventies. One being cure retardation or complete negation, from resins in cedar. Yet, I am often amazed by polys adhesive qualities even though it is not touted as a glue, but I did stop using it on timber back then.
I believe (could be wrong) poly was originally developed as a fibre impregnator not a glue and not noted for its peel strength.
As for shrinkage, the VOC's in poly are high, hence the shrinkage.
Good epoxy is 100% solids. Minimal shrinkage.
My lungs no longer tolerate styrene, but still tolerate epoxy. (Just)
UV intolerance is a consideration with epoxies.
Horses for courses.
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24-02-2017, 12:22
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 658
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
My point is that the world has moved on from polyester to vinylester and it wouldn't do you any harm to move on to vinylester as well, even (or even more so) when used to repair polyester boats. All your arguments for polyester are true for vinylester as well, plus it is factual a superior resin
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Vast majority of boats are still polyester. Ones concerned about warranty use vinylester as a skin coat. Not sure on the major sail builders but most of the smaller powerboats are all polyester adding vinylester if they are more saltwater oriented or higher end. I believe Bayliner was one of the first to use this method. They were looking for a price conscious method to cut down on blister warranty claims.
__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
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24-02-2017, 12:46
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#84
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin A
Oddly this insurance note is true. We would only pay for like kind in materials if you wanted to pay extra for epoxy that was up to you.
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Is not only money, is to bring back the OEM properties , i mean you cant throw gallons of epoxy in a hull damage in some instances unless you want .
1. make a hard spot.
2. mix disimilar materials with disimilar properties.
3. Kick in the gelcoat ass and welcome to more expensive bills in topcoat painting..
Saying that,, there is certains aplications and repairs where the Epoxy is marvel, rudders , keels, barrier coats, internal structural members etc...
I love Poly because i can speed up repairs really quick, built thicknes fast, dry really fast, and overall if you know what you are doing , make a strong repair or part in short time, he can be matched with the surrounding hull or deck and you cant notice,, last for the life of the boat or until a fool damage again the boat.. Cheers.
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25-02-2017, 17:08
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#85
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
e
Quote:
Originally Posted by smj
I wouldn't find this odd. Insurance companies are in the business to make money, not to payout more for a superior job.
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Actually , insurance companies are in business so they protect themselves from unscrupulous contractors who attempt to milk the job using far more expensive and labour intensive materials than necessary.
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25-02-2017, 17:16
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#86
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,425
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
e
Actually , insurance companies are in business so they protect themselves from unscrupulous contractors who attempt to milk the job using far more expensive and labour intensive materials than necessary.
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Insurance companies are in the business to make money, period. I guess the discussion is what one would consider necessary, and that's where we disagree.
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26-02-2017, 07:53
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#87
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Lake Ontario
Boat: Ontario 38 / Douglas 32 Mk II
Posts: 3,250
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by smj
Insurance companies are in the business to make money, period. I guess the discussion is what one would consider necessary, and that's where we disagree.
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The objective of an insurance claim repair is to restore the insured item to as near pre-claim condition as possible. If the vessel was finished in gelcoat (as 98% of plastic vessels on the water today are, any attempt to use epoxy would not support the objective.
Why on earth would any insurance company (in business to make money, or they would quickly become insolvent) agree to an epoxy repair and entire boat paint job, for a small repair that can be done with polyester, and matched up to the original surrounding surface for a tiny fraction of the cost? Insurance adjusters aren't stupid. A claimant shouldn't get a $20K entire boat paint job, on a 30 year old boat, where a $600 poly and gel repair will suffice.
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26-02-2017, 09:25
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,425
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramblinrod
The objective of an insurance claim repair is to restore the insured item to as near pre-claim condition as possible. If the vessel was finished in gelcoat (as 98% of plastic vessels on the water today are, any attempt to use epoxy would not support the objective.
Why on earth would any insurance company (in business to make money, or they would quickly become insolvent) agree to an epoxy repair and entire boat paint job, for a small repair that can be done with polyester, and matched up to the original surrounding surface for a tiny fraction of the cost? Insurance adjusters aren't stupid. A claimant shouldn't get a $20K entire boat paint job, on a 30 year old boat, where a $600 poly and gel repair will suffice.
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Nothing wrong with polyester for a cosmetic repair👍🏾
Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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26-02-2017, 09:54
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#89
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Sxm , Spain
Boat: CSY 44 Tall rig Sold!
Posts: 4,367
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Cosmetic hee?
All this boats damaged repaired in Poly and Gel.
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26-02-2017, 10:00
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 7,425
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Re: Epoxy or Polyester as I replace large sections of Deck Core
Had almost the same damage on one of my keels that was repaired with polyester. Hauled the boat the next year and three quarters of it had peeled of. Repaired myself with epoxy at that point and no problems. Funny thing, I left a gallon of epoxy for the professional to repair with but he still used polyester.
Use whatever you feel comfortable using and I'll do the same.
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