Epoxy Fume Inhalation And Air Filtration

[zstine]

My question is if anyone knows if the 'dangerous' compounds that off-gas from epoxy are heavier or lighter than air? I'm just trying to figure out if it is better to place the intake of my filtration system near the floor or near the ceiling.

I'm upgrading my shop in preparation to build a boat using epoxy. I'd like to avoid becoming sensitized (like Chotu) and want to add ventilation and air filtration (I will wear PPE to avoid skin contact and a VOC mask while doing a layup). Filtration with activated carbon filters are recommended. On Amazon, I see a Bissell air320 purifier with active carbon filter that will exchange the air ~4 times and hour in my shop and I think that will be a good addition.

MSDS sheets list many compounds in liquid epoxy, not necessarily the compounds that off-gas. Anyone know what 'bad' chemicals end up in the air and if they are lighter or heavier than air?

Chotu??

[Island Time O25]

A friend used to work at a place making carbon fiber rowing sculls and masts. All their filtration devices seemed to be high up at the ceiling level.

Personally I think that the fiberglass and the filler dust are much more dangerous in the long run than the fumes which are "diluted" in the immediate air.

[Chotu]

I wish I couldn’t write a book on this, but I can.

There are three types of compounds that are dangerous in epoxy. And these three compounds make up all of epoxy. Lol

First, doesn’t seem to be much of an inhalation issue, but BPA (yes, the one you’re supposed to try to avoid in water bottles because it’s an estrogenic endocrine disruptor) is the resin side of the mix. That’s mostly all it is. Liquid BPA. Play around with enough and you will be able to sing soprano in the choir and model next year’s bikini tops. Keep it off your skin and out of your food.

Next, also also in the resin side, there are sometimes not too bad solvents. These definitely will off gas. They’re designed to do so. They use these to thin the BPA to give it different properties for laminating, infusing, casting, etc. these are like any other solvents and have the same health effects.

Finally the big one. The bottle marked “hardener” is the aliphatic amine. These aliphatic amines cause massive immune system problems. Your body attacks it. In the case of my body, I developed a very strong reaction to these amines. So strong, it sends me into anaphylaxis when even the smallest whiff is around. These are the most dangerous part of working with epoxy. Everyone gets X amount of exposure before your body goes haywire trying to fight it off. Trouble is, X could be 15 minutes or it could be 20 years. Everyone is different. So best not to be exposed.

In my case, I had no health problems or allergies before using epoxy. When my body was deciding to wage all out war on the amines, it also decided several other things in my system were at fault too. Dairy. Mold. Citrus. Because of the epoxy reaction, these other things became allergens for me as well. Now I can’t eat anything fun and it gets hard to breathe in basically every boat. Because all boats have mold, unless constructed like mine where you can reach every surface to wash it.

On to your question after the background info:

It seems to permeate like a fart. LOL. Not rising or sinking. It just moves outward. It cones up off the laminate to your head and is plenty strong at the floor too.

If I were in your situation, with a nice industrial shop like that, I’d do the following or at least some of it. :

1). If you can, get localized air extraction set up. Vented outside. Have a set of tubes or ducts that are directly over your workstation and pulling air like crazy out of the building. Make them hang from the ceiling so you can move them around and have them pulling where they are needed.

2) provide for continuous air flow from one side of the building to the other. Have open air on one side and large exhaust fans on the other. Don’t worry about filtering. It’ll be expensive and won’t work well. Just keep a constant supply of fresh air coming in and exhaust bad air out.

3) The charcoal mask will work for a while, but it ends up being less expensive (and useful when you go to spray the finished boat with 2part linear polyurethane) to get one of these:

https://www.turbineproducts.com/brea...fullface-mask/

[Orion Jim]

https://www.epa.gov/indoor-air-quali...compounds-vocs

I spent my career at a Fortune 100 company and VOC’s were taken very seriously by our health and safety professionals. Of course they were ignored in the 70’s and gradually recognized by the 80’s, but the testing devices/technology finally caught up and our working environments and health benefited greatly.

[Jammer]

The compounds in question are heavier than air.


Dust from sanding, grinding, or cutting green (uncured) epoxy is a major contributor to exposure.


Skin exposure is a major contributor also even when PPE is used. I am completing a stitch-and-glue boat build and know firsthand. Gloves rip, epoxy spills, forearms brush against stuff, disposable clothing gets soaked through, etc. It is wise to be as neat and careful as possible, but realize that PPE reduces exposure but does not eliminate it.

[requiem]

Based on what I've found from looking into dust extraction for woodworking, I'd second Chotu's suggestions to focus on replacing rather than cleaning the air.

Getting the contaminated air out of the shop and replaced with fresh air from outside is probably more effective, and reduces spend on fancy air filtration equipment that might not actually work nearly as well as it claims. For woodwork you'd also want to combine that with dust collection at the source, but attaching a vacuum to a paint brush or sprayer seems a bit impractical.

Spoiler for anyone who has yet to stumble across Bill Pentz's site: the air quality in your shop is probably far, far worse than what's considered "safe" for a commercial facility.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by Chotu

. . . . Finally the big one. The bottle marked “hardener” is the aliphatic amine. These aliphatic amines cause massive immune system problems. Your body attacks it. In the case of my body, I developed a very strong reaction to these amines.. . . .

If I were in your situation, with a nice industrial shop like that, I’d do the following . . .

So the chemicals that your body becomes sensitized to are the Amines. And there are apparently several Amine compounds (Triethylenetetramine, Ethanediamine, Amines, etc) in the hardener... good to know. not sure the vapor pressure or volatility of these compounds, but I will do my best to keep it off my skin. And a fresh air breather is a good idea.

I don't have an 'industrial shop'. I have a garage which is insulated and heated and fairly air-tight. I can open the garage door for a huge amount of ventilation, BUT only if the outside temp and humidity is acceptable for laminating. So, I want to add filtration that allows me to laminate when temps are below 50 degrees. Bringing in fresh air and exhausting dirty air is great in concept, but all that air coming in needs to be heated and my current system will not handle much exchange of air before the inside temps drop too close to outdoor temps. I live in NJ, btw. I'm just trying to be reasonably safe b/c this is a 'test' build for a much bigger build I want to do as a 'retirement' yacht. If I become sensitized to epoxy, I won't be building my retirement boat.. or I would have to build in Aluminum.

Perhaps I should become good at vacuum infusion so the epoxy is confined and fumes controlled... i just hate all the plastic waist


Thanks everyone for the input.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by requiem

Based on what I've found from looking into dust extraction for woodworking, I'd second Chotu's suggestions to focus on replacing rather than cleaning the air.

Getting the contaminated air out of the shop and replaced with fresh air from outside is probably more effective, and reduces spend on fancy air filtration equipment that might not actually work nearly as well as it claims. For woodwork you'd also want to combine that with dust collection at the source, but attaching a vacuum to a paint brush or sprayer seems a bit impractical.

Spoiler for anyone who has yet to stumble across Bill Pentz's site: the air quality in your shop is probably far, far worse than what's considered "safe" for a commercial facility.

Temp and humidity control becomes an issue with exchanging air with outside air... at least it will make laminating a weather dependent and seasonal affair, unless I also including heating/cooling into that air exchange, which is a bit beyond what I was hoping to do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by zstine

So the chemicals that your body becomes sensitized to are the Amines. And there are apparently several Amine compounds (Triethylenetetramine, Ethanediamine, Amines, etc) in the hardener... good to know. not sure the vapor pressure or volatility of these compounds, but I will do my best to keep it off my skin. And a fresh air breather is a good idea.

I don't have an 'industrial shop'. I have a garage which is insulated and heated and fairly air-tight. I can open the garage door for a huge amount of ventilation, BUT only if the outside temp and humidity is acceptable for laminating. So, I want to add filtration that allows me to laminate when temps are below 50 degrees. Bringing in fresh air and exhausting dirty air is great in concept, but all that air coming in needs to be heated and my current system will not handle much exchange of air before the inside temps drop too close to outdoor temps. I live in NJ, btw. I'm just trying to be reasonably safe b/c this is a 'test' build for a much bigger build I want to do as a 'retirement' yacht. If I become sensitized to epoxy, I won't be building my retirement boat.. or I would have to build in Aluminum.

Perhaps I should become good at vacuum infusion so the epoxy is confined and fumes controlled... i just hate all the plastic waist


Thanks everyone for the input.

Now you see why I built mine in Florida. With the size of my boat, it was tens of thousands of dollars a winter to heat a shop to the temperature necessary to work with epoxy. The ideal situation would be to build the hull in Florida and then fill it out up north. Talking about your retirement boat. Doing the fit out in Florida is awful because of the heat. But, the heat is your friend doing the epoxy work.

I don’t know the vapor pressure or anything of the amines, but they are airborne. They don’t just sit there in the laminate. You breathe them in. You can smell them immediately when you crack open epoxy to start working with it. If you know what you are smelling for.

The supplied air respirator I showed is probably one of your best ways to do this on a budget. You can take the box, and put it outside. Don’t even put it in the same building you are in. Put it outside. They come with 50 foot and 100 foot hoses. You can do whatever with it. It develops a positive pressure inside the mask, so you absolutely can’t breathe any air that you are working in. This thing probably saved my life. And it’s very useful for painting at the end. You would have had to buy it anyway for painting.

So, because you are staying up north in the winter, you will actually have to make some sacrifices. You are not going to be able to laminate all the time AND have fresh air in the winter. But, some of the time you will be able to.

Do you know who knows a lot about this? Grit. I hope he sees this thread. While I know a lot about staying away from epoxy, he knows a lot about laminating in the dead of winter. I’m sure he has a lot of really good ideas about this.

And aside from negatives, congratulations on the build! Even though it’s practice, it will be fun. You’ll learn a lot of new stuff. And you’ll be ready to go for the retirement but when you choose to.

[Chotu]

Couple more thoughts. Doing resin infusion is the way to go. I know you don’t want to waste the plastic, but, it keeps you away from chemicals, creates a better final product, there really is no downside to it. It’s fantastic. That’s how I did most of my boat.

My hulls and all of my cross beam bulkheads are infused. Along with the dagger boards and rudders. All of the main structure of the boat.

Another thought if you would like to stay away from the potential immune system problems is just using a different resin. Polyester and vinylester are what most boats are made out of. Epoxy is a little bit of overkill. The esters will throw off a lot of styrene. So you still can’t breathe it. But at least you know when there’s a problem because it stinks. It alerts you right away if you are breathing it. Epoxy is benign smelling and seemingly harmless. So you don’t get alerted as quickly. Just some thoughts.

[rslifkin]

Depending on what temperature you can heat the space to, laminating in the cold is possible up to a point. I found when building with epoxy over this past winter that as long as you can get the work surfaces up to 40* or so, working with fast hardener isn't really a problem. Everything just goes a bit slower due to long cure times and the epoxy being thick (stuff wets out slower, etc.). Once it's much below 40*, it takes a good 2 days for a good cure and 5 - 7 days before it's time to scrub the blush off and call it good. And it's hard to avoid using excess resin in the layup at that temp because the stuff gets so thick and gooey.


The one upside of working in the cold was ventilation became very easy for me. Leave the main cabin hatch open and the space I was working in was open to the aft bilge (with 2x 5" vent ducts into it). Run as much heat as I could power and once things warmed up a little, the heated air started enough stack effect that there was a significant breeze out the hatch (which limited how much I could warm things up). It was enough airflow that even if I cleaned something with solvents the smell was gone in seconds.

[thinwater]

The OP's question--are the fumes heavier than air--is a trick question.


Yes, based on MW, obviously they are


No, if there is any air movement at all--heating and cooling, you walking around working--they will not stratify and the concentration will be similar from floor to ceiling.


If you are trying to reduce levels, pull from one end of the area and return from the other, and preferably keep yourself on the upstream end.


That air purifier wouldn't accomplish much. It's about POUNDS of carbon, and it does not hold diddly. You are better off with a high flow HEPA filter for sanding dust (more like 10-20 changes per hour) and fresh air changes for the epoxy fume (that will be cheaper than carbon, even if the air is heated or cooled).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PxEzYtggtE

A MERV 13 air cleaner for $25. All you need for sanding dust, including epoxy dust (MERV 13 is very nearly HEPA). Several times higher volume than any afordable HEPA filter.

[otterhound]

As someone who's also sensitized to the hardener in epoxy I think you might be better served to duct your fresh air intake to the outdoors. If you're bent on using a respirator especially 23C for organic vapors you must enclose the cartridges in a plastic bag after use. The usable lifespan on these is 40 hours.
Rod

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by thinwater

The OP's question--are the fumes heavier than air--is a trick question.


Yes, based on MW, obviously they are


No, if there is any air movement at all--heating and cooling, you walking around working--they will not stratify and the concentration will be similar from floor to ceiling.


If you are trying to reduce levels, pull from one end of the area and return from the other, and preferably keep yourself on the upstream end.


That air purifier wouldn't accomplish much. It's about POUNDS of carbon, and it does not hold diddly. You are better off with a high flow HEPA filter for sanding dust (more like 10-20 changes per hour) and fresh air changes for the epoxy fume (that will be cheaper than carbon, even if the air is heated or cooled).

A MERV 13 air cleaner for $25. All you need for sanding dust, including epoxy dust (MERV 13 is very nearly HEPA). Several times higher volume than any afordable HEPA filter.

[fourlyons]

If you do want to vent the shop air with outside air in the winter and not lose all your heat, you can install an energy recovery ventilator ( for temperature and humidity control) or a heat recovery ventilator. It's basically an air to air heat exchanger. They are commonly used in super tight houses and buildings, not really expensive either.

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