Encapsulated = invulnerable ??

[merrydolphin]

1. Gulfstar is not know for being a well made boat. Yes there are worse but?

2. I will take an encapsulated ballast (properly done) any day over external bolt on.

I have owned 6 serious live aboard cruisers in my 55+ years of cruising and never had a problem with encapsulated keel from solid cast lead to the Concret encased steel punching of my 30 yr old KP-44. Never a problem.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

It's pretty obvious that photos 1 & 2 are not just "hitting a rock". Those are hitting rocks and laying against them with sea action grinding away for quite some time.

Cheekako, That is incorrect. The vessel, Danika, struck the rock once and then backed off and continued to La Cruz, where I interviewed the owner and made the photographs.

John Larsen, who is a Southeast Alaska Marine Pilot for cruise ships in Alaska, struck a pinnacle rock near Punta Mita.

Thanks to Larsen, we at least now know there is a pinnacle rock that comes to within about five feet of the surface at 20° 45.843' N. Larsen puts this at approximately "80 degrees, .786 nm from the NW point north of the Punta Mita Light."

But Larsen informs us that Navionics says it's on the most recent version of their electronic charts.

Larsen's Westsail hit the rock bow on at close to seven knots, stopping her dead still, and creating the damage to the hull clearly seen in the accompanying photograph.

In the last two years I have seen 5 vessels wrecked within a few miles of here (not including Danika, which was previous to that). Three of them were full keel, encapsulated keel, cruising sailboats. Two were bolted on fin keel boats. Three of the five dragged onto rocks while anchored, two were sailed onto the shore due to poor navigation. All the full keel boats were destroyed when the fiberglass hulls were shattered, both in keel area and in the basic hull structure. Of the two fin keel boats, one's keel broke off but the other, while it had holes in the hull large enough for a person to climb through, retained it's bolt on lead keel and that vessel, the only one of the five, was salvaged and is again sailing.

Other fin keel vessels have sailed directly onto reefs or islands without loosing their keels, such as the Deerfoot Moonshadow.

It is not clear to me that there is any advantage to having an encapsulated, full keel, boat if you are going to let it drag onto a reef or sail into an island.

The best protection against shipwreck or damage is good navigation and seamanship and a vessel which can sail out of danger, not a bullet proof armor clad tank.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Cheekako, That is incorrect. The vessel, Danika, struck the rock once and then backed off and continued to La Cruz, where I interviewed the owner and made the photographs.

John Larsen, who is a Southeast Alaska Marine Pilot for cruise ships in Alaska, struck a pinnacle rock near Punta Mita.

Thanks to Larsen, we at least now know there is a pinnacle rock that comes to within about five feet of the surface at 20° 45.843' N. Larsen puts this at approximately "80 degrees, .786 nm from the NW point north of the Punta Mita Light."

But Larsen informs us that Navionics says it's on the most recent version of their electronic charts.

Larsen's Westsail hit the rock bow on at close to seven knots, stopping her dead still, and creating the damage to the hull clearly seen in the accompanying photograph.

In the last two years I have seen 5 vessels wrecked within a few miles of here (not including Danika, which was previous to that). Three of them were full keel, encapsulated keel, cruising sailboats. Two were bolted on fin keel boats. Three of the five dragged onto rocks while anchored, two were sailed onto the shore due to poor navigation. All the full keel boats were destroyed when the fiberglass hulls were shattered, both in keel area and in the basic hull structure. Of the two fin keel boats, one's keel broke off but the other, while it had holes in the hull large enough for a person to climb through, retained it's bolt on lead keel and that vessel, the only one of the five, was salvaged and is again sailing.

Other fin keel vessels have sailed directly onto reefs or islands without loosing their keels, such as the Deerfoot Moonshadow.

It is not clear to me that there is any advantage to having an encapsulated, full keel, boat if you are going to let it drag onto a reef or sail into an island.

The best protection against shipwreck or damage is good navigation and seamanship and a vessel which can sail out of danger, not a bullet proof armor clad tank.

Maybe thinking you are invincible is one of the dangers. Sort of how large suvs and pickups account for a proportionally larger number of auto accidents in bad weather.

[Visarend]

As others pointed to, this is not a truly encapsulated keel, rather a loose ballast inside a hollow keel. When I built my 38' cutter, some 34 years ago (still going strong), every layer of lead ingots inside the keel were incorporated in an epoxy resin cast. The whole is a monolith. No way such a damage could determine water ingress, just cosmetic damage. (Don't ask why I know.)

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The best protection against shipwreck or damage is good navigation and seamanship and a vessel which can sail out of danger, not a bullet proof armor clad tank.

They are all important. Having the ability to sail out of danger does not preclude a sailboat from being strongly built regardless of keel type.

[topmast]

""Maybe thinking you are invincible is one of the dangers. Sort of how large suvs and pickups account for a proportionally larger number of auto accidents in bad weather.""
Attitude must play a part .Hard to find front end parts for Volvo in the wrecking yards They all suffer head ons. Remember back in the '70 s A Taiwan special gets its keel damage ground off to fix the scuff and the sand runs out.

[Nyanza Cav32]

On a bolt on/fin keeled yacht the cable would have undoubtedly dragged the rudder/skeg off (and sunk), destroyed the prop shaft and cutlass bearing (and sunk) or dragged the keel off (and sunk)

This is a sweeping assertion which is not supported by reality; if it were, such boats would litter the floor of every harbour and they would not be insurable. Perhaps it might be a possible outcome with some very lightly built racers, or maybe even on some under-engineered cruisers, but I can assure you it wouldn't be at all likely to happen with the majority of bolt on/fin keel yachts.

You have to admit that this flaw in design and/or build of the boat that all but sank was a major one, I would be very alarmed if I had a boat like it. I bet something had to be done about it before any insurance company would touch it again.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by coopec43

On a bolt on/fin keeled yacht the cable would have undoubtedly dragged the rudder/skeg off (and sunk), destroyed the prop shaft and cutlass bearing (and sunk) or dragged the keel off (and sunk)

This is an incorrect assertion.

For example, check out post #26 (the last photo). A similar occurrence except the striking object was a steel structure, not a chain. You can hardly see the damage on back edge of the keel. The rudder, strut propeller and keel are all intact. If what you assert was remotely true there would be some visible damage, and there is none, let alone a sunken boat.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Note to self: don’t let Cheechako navigate! [emoji16]

Note to self: he's no worse than me.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by wingssail

As noted above, this is a sweeping assertion based only on ignorance and assumption, and I might add, arrogant stupidity.

.

WOW!! What a reaction!!!



Serenpidity 43






https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...-vs-full-keels

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by coopec43

WOW!! What a reaction!!!

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...-vs-full-keels

I guess I should add, "sheep". Like, don't think for yourself, don't address the facts of your dumb assertion, just follow another opinionated writer who tries to prove his point with scary stories.

"Oh golly Timmy, do we have to walk past the graveyard at night? The fin keel might rise up and get us!"

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I guess I should add, "sheep". Like, don't think for yourself, don't address the facts of your dumb assertion, just follow another opinionated writer who tries to prove his point with scary stories.

Quite, I don't know who wrote that article or why, but I will give it a very good and stiff ignoring, then carry on sailing with not one but two fin keels

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I guess I should add, "sheep". Like, don't think for yourself, don't address the facts of your dumb assertion, just follow another opinionated writer who tries to prove his point with scary stories.

"Oh golly Timmy, do we have to walk past the graveyard at night? The fin keel might rise up and get us!"

I have no intention of trading discourtesies on this forum as I have respect for others. If you want to insult others why don't you PM them? (Obviously I have hit a raw nerve)

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Quite, I don't know who wrote that article or why, but I will give it a very good and stiff ignoring, then carry on sailing with not one but two fin keels

So the second one is a spare? That's thinking outside the square! (I like it))

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Quite, I don't know who wrote that article or why, but I will give it a very good and stiff ignoring, then carry on sailing with not one but two fin keels

I don't know, I found it quite interesting.. it was not a condemnation of fin keels, more an explanation of how they work, the pressures and design parameters.. and what can happen when skimpy design and poor maintaince combine eg Cheeky Rafiki.
Not forgetting the Brit solo RTW competitor Tony Bullimore who had to survive for around 4 days in his upturned hull when his keel fell off in the Southern Ocean.. luckily he was found.

Edited after looking up his name.
These were two separate types of failure, CR was the keel ripping out the hull, TB was a clean sheer, luckily the keel stubs stayed in place allowing air to be trapped inside preventing him sinking.