Encapsulated = invulnerable ??

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Two examples of damage.

Photo 1 & 2, Westsail 42 with encapsulated ballast, hit a rock.

Photo 3, Different scenario, bolt-on keel hit by moving steel structure on the back of the keel.

More: I have no photos of either of two other cases where a fin keel race boat (one mine, the other one which I was commanding) hit rocks near the bottom of their bolt-on keels while travelling at speed (over seven knots). Both boats suffered damage on the keel, easily repaired and on one boat there was no other damage. The second one had cracking (but no water engress) on the hull structure aft of the keel and required fiberglass repair.

So I think it is incorrect to say that hitting rocks with bolt-on keels will always result in sinking or torn off keels, and also that having a chain drag around the back of a bolt on fin keel will result in major damage. The photos here don't demonstrate that.

I join Chotu with a bad record.

Did photo's 1 and 2 take on water?

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Sooo, in a moment of monumental newbie stupidity, we ran into the Reedy Island dike at five plus knots, this is an under water dike, several miles long in Delaware bay,

This has always been a boat killer, and has gotten a lot worse with the advent of electronic charts. That tiny little dashed line doesn't look like anything to worry about, and the anchorage back behind Reedy Island is the only one around for a long bit, making an inviting shortcut for people without local knowledge headed for the C&D canal.

On paper charts, it is always clear and easy to see.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Did photo's 1 and 2 take on water?

Well, the owner told me that no water came into the boat but into the keel structure, I am not sure.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

Good old one piece steel boats. Indestructible.

Dunno about that.. 2 or 3 years ago there was a thread on here about a steel boat missing between Columbia and Panama..
The boat was found upside down with no keel if memory serves.. sadly the owner and his wife did not survive.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

coopec, thanks for a valid criticism of my post. I think the picture of the damage distracted me from that sentence.

Jim

Jim


OK (Comforting to know that someone else can do it!)

[RaymondR]

When I built my steel boat the plans showed a large void behind the ballast section and since I could not see the sense in having a large buoyant void counteracting the ballast I plated the top in and put the fuel tank down there.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Sooo, in a moment of monumental newbie stupidity, we ran into the Reedy Island dike at five plus knots, this is an under water dike, several miles long in Delaware bay, it is meant to help keep the traffic lanes from silting in, it has been there for something around ninety plus years. This happened in our first month of our first trip to the Bahamas... three years ago... to but it bluntly we came to a complete halt, instantly, this little incident put a bit of a dent in the leading edge of our “fully encapsulated keel” ,luckily for us the damage was far less than I imagined it would be, any way we had the damage repaired, and were on our way three days later. I’m thinking that if we had a bolt on keel we wouldn’t have been able to continue on with our journey so promptly as it were...

Not one of our proudest moments, but we learned from our error shall we say...

As an aside, the tech at the marina told us that around seven boats hit that dike annually, and a large Nordhausen trawler sank hitting it the previous year...

Fair winds,

We're still waiting for the definitely would have sunk part. Buddy of mine did six knots into a rock on his Catalina 380 with no I'll consequence other than the inconvenience of the haulout months later. Another ran his 28 footer into an unmarked shoal under full sail and it's still going and my Beneteau ended up on the rocks for several hours and not an issue. All bolt on keels. The reason for the seemingly large number of of keel issues says more about overall numbers being viewed as percentages as a single number tells us nothing. In fact research done properly still points to metal boats proportionally representing the most lost keels.

Also putting racing boats, which will always be fin keelers, into the debate does more to mislead all involved either way.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

We're still waiting for the definitely would have sunk part. Buddy of mine did six knots into a rock on his Catalina 380 with no I'll consequence other than the inconvenience of the haulout months later. Another ran his 28 footer into an unmarked shoal under full sail and it's still going and my Beneteau ended up on the rocks for several hours and not an issue. All bolt on keels. The reason for the seemingly large number of of keel issues says more about overall numbers being viewed as percentages as a single number tells us nothing. In fact research done properly still points to metal boats proportionally representing the most lost keels.

Also putting racing boats, which will always be fin keelers, into the debate does more to mislead all involved either way.

Have you got any links to research done properly which supports your assertion that "metal boats proportionally representing the most lost keels" ?

There is an online spreadsheet that lists the yachts that have lost their keels. If you google "keel failure summary" you will get the link.

Apparently the most up-to-date spreadsheet lists over 100 yachts these days.

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by coopec43

Have you got any links to research done properly which supports your assertion that "metal boats proportionally representing the most lost keels" ?

There is an online spreadsheet that lists the yachts that have lost their keels. If you google "keel failure summary" you will get the link.

Apparently the most up-to-date spreadsheet lists over 100 yachts these days.

Practical Boat Owner used insurance claims as well as reports from various coast guards around the world to determine that. Metal was the keel failure champion. Most issues were bad welds from builds outside reputable boatyards as well as undetected rust in hard to inspect areas. Of course one highly publicized event involving an ill repaired race boat will allow those not tethered to the facts to run roughshod over reality.

Truth is any boat well maintained and from a decent builder is probably not going to find itself among the rather low reports of keel failure. That won't stop the mine is better than your crowd from crowing.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I'd say both the keel falling off stories and this watery story point to one big thing: regardless of bolt on or encapsulated keel, you have to design and build it properly. If you don't, there's potential for things to go very, very wrong.
.

Well, exactly. It all boils down to engineering, doesn't it?

When people develop these religious ideas about encapsulated keeps vs bolt on - engineering is out the window.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by nortonscove

Practical Boat Owner used insurance claims as well as reports from various coast guards around the world .

So uninsured yachts were not included?

Of course we don't know how many yachts (if any) have lost their keels at sea and disappeared along with the crew.

Missing or Overdue Yachts Worldwide

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1411480548874724/


Missing or Overdue Vessels

https://boatwatch.org/boat-watch-net...erdue-vessels/

https://boatwatch.org/2021/

[gonesail]

if Mike Plant was still around maybe he could tell us what happened when his bolt on keel fell off.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Pegu Club

Sooo, in a moment of monumental newbie stupidity, we ran into the Reedy Island dike at five plus knots, this is an under water dike, several miles long in Delaware bay, it is meant to help keep the traffic lanes from silting in, it has been there for something around ninety plus years. This happened in our first month of our first trip to the Bahamas... three years ago... to but it bluntly we came to a complete halt, instantly, this little incident put a bit of a dent in the leading edge of our “fully encapsulated keel” ,luckily for us the damage was far less than I imagined it would be, any way we had the damage repaired, and were on our way three days later. I’m thinking that if we had a bolt on keel we wouldn’t have been able to continue on with our journey so promptly as it were...

Not one of our proudest moments, but we learned from our error shall we say...

As an aside, the tech at the marina told us that around seven boats hit that dike annually, and a large Nordhausen trawler sank hitting it the previous year...

Fair winds,

Good on you for talking about your mistake. I have a special new curve in my bow because of a similar mistake with a big buoy on the St Lawrence. We all do dumb stuff at times.

Would that “tech” be Charlie at Delaware City Marina? We stayed there several years. What you did is an all too common occurrence.

BTW I tried to find the history of that “dike” and I think it is considerably older than 90 years. I found a reference to it being repaired early in the civil war.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Dunno about that.. 2 or 3 years ago there was a thread on here about a steel boat missing between Columbia and Panama..
The boat was found upside down with no keel if memory serves.. sadly the owner and his wife did not survive.

There was a thread about that incident. My very dodgy memory recalls that particular steel boat had a bolt on/detachable keel so that she could be trailered over the road. And also they had experienced a very hard grounding for which the boat was hailed and inspected and/or repaired. Apparently not that well done.

Our big steel boat has a very deep bilge that goes nearly to the shoe. Should that become holed it would he a problem. But it is 1/4” steel so there is that.

Our smaller steel boat has a fin keel and a skeg hung rudder. That skeg is hollow. I have inspected it to assure its integrity and it seems as good as new.

Otherwise the keels are either ballast sections or tankage, which is in effect a double hull. So I could take a puncture and leak diesel or water but not sink, provided the lids hold the pressure.

[coopec43]

Originally Posted by gonesail

if Mike Plant was still around maybe he could tell us what happened when his bolt on keel fell off.

I bet there's plenty more who are not around to tell us what happened to their keel. (Mike Plant must have had a death wish to go to sea in something like Coyote)

The Passion of Mike Plant
America’s greatest solo
sailing hero takes his final ride in Coyote

"The coast guard report focused on the design and construction of Coyote’s fin keel and ballast bulb. With her draft of roughly 14 feet, Coyote’s hull drew 1 foot 3 inches of water. Her fin itself was 11 feet 2 inches deep. Below the fin’s bottom hung the 18-inch-deep 8,400-pound ballast bulb"

Bring Your Own Plates