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Old 27-09-2019, 09:58   #1
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Drill baby drill...

Hi. I am usually very shy with the drill when it comes to my boat but there are some upgrades that i would like to have which i believe necessities so there are some drilling...Well actually i already drilled some but wondering if i cut corners and should i do a better job. I am intended to keep the boat for looong time so perhaps a better approach would be more beneficial.
The boat is albin vega27. Installed an anchor roller which fitted very nicely, i used m3 bedding compound. During the drilling, inspected the wood shavings that came off, they were nice and dry i wonder if that would indicate something. The deck is very solid, no soft spot whatsoever, the vegas are built thick and strong anyway and i dont want to **#* this up because i feel the need to rush through it.
Some other projects on the menu is installing jacklines which req. folding padeyes through bolted on the deck.
Since this applications are above water, can i get away with just bedding or do i have to go the overdrilling, plugging from bottom, filling epoxy, drilling again route. If the more complex route necessary what material i should gather? I filled few gaps wit JB 5 min epoxy(not thickened, clear stuff. Would that work? i also heard sawdust can be mixed with epoxy resin creating a peanut butter consistency to work as thickened epoxy.
I like to learn new stuff and consider myself handy. I worked with fiberglass mats, resins in the past. Some easy mix epoxy work but no west system, filler experience. Thanks in advance.
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:20   #2
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledevil View Post
Hi. I am usually very shy with the drill when it comes to my boat but there are some upgrades that i would like to have which i believe necessities so there are some drilling...Well actually i already drilled some but wondering if i cut corners and should i do a better job. I am intended to keep the boat for looong time so perhaps a better approach would be more beneficial.
The boat is albin vega27. Installed an anchor roller which fitted very nicely, i used m3 bedding compound. During the drilling, inspected the wood shavings that came off, they were nice and dry i wonder if that would indicate something. The deck is very solid, no soft spot whatsoever, the vegas are built thick and strong anyway and i dont want to **#* this up because i feel the need to rush through it.
Some other projects on the menu is installing jacklines which req. folding padeyes through bolted on the deck.
Since this applications are above water, can i get away with just bedding or do i have to go the overdrilling, plugging from bottom, filling epoxy, drilling again route. If the more complex route necessary what material i should gather? I filled few gaps wit JB 5 min epoxy(not thickened, clear stuff. Would that work? i also heard sawdust can be mixed with epoxy resin creating a peanut butter consistency to work as thickened epoxy.
I like to learn new stuff and consider myself handy. I worked with fiberglass mats, resins in the past. Some easy mix epoxy work but no west system, filler experience. Thanks in advance.
Whenever you drill thru the core, always over drill, plug, epoxy then drill again. Use regular epoxy, 5-min does not have a lot of strength and could crack under pressure.
For bedding, if you are thru-bolting use butyl tape, otherwise use Sikaflex 291. Check Maine Sails site, lots of good info there and he sells the butyl, proper for the job.
https://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:41   #3
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Re: Drill baby drill...

I am currently looking at many deck core problems on my 40-yr old 21' boat from holes not being over-drilled, filled, and re-drilled. The previous owners also did not butyl or re-butyl as needed. Sometimes they tried a little silicone but not enough to save anything.
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:42   #4
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Re: Drill baby drill...

CORRECTION: The core is plastic foam. Not any sort of wood if that makes any difference. I initially was thinking it was wood.
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:45   #5
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Even for the plastic foam core the more complex route must be taken?
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:46   #6
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Re: Drill baby drill...

You dont have to go to the epoxy coring method. You can just paint the core with epoxy or make sure it's filled with your sealant all around if it's good tenacious sealant.
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Old 27-09-2019, 10:51   #7
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Re: Drill baby drill...

I would do the full job regardless - unless you are dead certain the core material could never absorb water.....

as for fill materials, I've been using west 610 - pre-thickened epoxy, caulking gun tube with a mixing nozzle - great stuff for filling holes.

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Old 27-09-2019, 12:31   #8
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Thanks. The anchor roller is already installed, instead of removing/installing back with the epoxy method, i just keep it as it is and keep a close eye on water intrusion.
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Old 27-09-2019, 16:02   #9
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Re: Drill baby drill...

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Originally Posted by SVTatia View Post
butyl, proper for the job.

https://www.pbase.com/mainecruising
That site's deprecated, here's the new one

https://shop.marinehowto.com/products/bed-it-tape
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Old 27-09-2019, 19:49   #10
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Don't over drill the holes. Drill the proper size holes for the fasteners then use a Dremel 199 bit to rout out the core.

Epoxying fastener holes.
If you want to do a permanent fix for any fastener through a cored deck do this.

1. Drill your holes through the outer laminate only. You don't want to go through the interior laminate if you can help it. If you drill through the inner laminate you'll have to deal with the gap between the liner and deck that will allow resin to run out the bottom. If you do drill through and can get at the backside, use duct tape or other seriously sticky tape to seal the hole. Don't even think about using masking tape and you know how I learned that. If there is a liner, best thing is use a suitable hole saw and cut a large enough hole that you can use tape to seal the inner laminate closed. Fill the hole you’ve cut in the liner with plugs available from McMaster Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/#snap-in-plugs/=1a8svq4

2. Get a Dremel tool with a Dremel 199 bit.
https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-199-Hi...ds=dremel+1993.
Cut the Dremel bit into the hole at as close to a 90 degree angle as you can. This makes for a very minimal enlargement of the drilled puka to maintain deck integrity and hopefully the fitting will cover any damage to the gelcoat. Once the bit is cut in, raise the tool to vertical and rout out the core. I’ve tried the bent nail, sharpened Allen wrench, etc, without a lot of success and a nearly broken wrist. The Dremel 199 bit works way better, less damage to the gel coat and easy to do for fastener pukas. If you’ve other than just s fastener puka, the other tools might work better for routing larger areas though not for me.

3. Once that's done, vacuum out the hole. Fill a syringe with epoxy resin and fill the hole. This soaks the resin into all the void to be sure the core is completely sealed. Have discovered that West Systems has a very slow catalyst (#209) that will allow you to fill a bunch of pukas without the resin kicking in temps over 80 degrees. Use the regular slow hardener (#206) if temp is much below 80 degrees or the epoxy will take forever to go off. If you need the fast catalyst (#205) it’s too cold to be working and wait for spring.
https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-s...ins-hardeners/

4. Suck out as much of the resin as you can and mix with a structural filler like West 404. Reinject the thickened epoxy into the puka.

5. After the resin has set redrill the hole. The thickened epoxy makes an incompressible base for the fasteners. Personally believe that most of the leaks into deck core is because the installer puts too much torque on the fastener and compresses the core.

6. Finish by chamfering the edge of the hole with a counter sink bit. The chamfer allows for a thick donut of whatever sealant you use around the fastener shaft. That goes a long way to insuring that the fastener won’t leak again. Whether you decided to do the epoxy thing or not, chamfering the edge of the fastener puka is a must for any hope of a leak free install of any fastener.
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Old 28-09-2019, 06:11   #11
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Don't over drill the holes. Drill the proper size holes for the fasteners then use a Dremel 199 bit to rout out the core.

Epoxying fastener holes.
If you want to do a permanent fix for any fastener through a cored deck do this.

1. Drill your holes through the outer laminate only. You don't want to go through the interior laminate if you can help it. If you drill through the inner laminate you'll have to deal with the gap between the liner and deck that will allow resin to run out the bottom. If you do drill through and can get at the backside, use duct tape or other seriously sticky tape to seal the hole. Don't even think about using masking tape and you know how I learned that. If there is a liner, best thing is use a suitable hole saw and cut a large enough hole that you can use tape to seal the inner laminate closed. Fill the hole youíve cut in the liner with plugs available from McMaster Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/#snap-in-plugs/=1a8svq4

2. Get a Dremel tool with a Dremel 199 bit.
https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-199-Hi...ds=dremel+1993.
Cut the Dremel bit into the hole at as close to a 90 degree angle as you can. This makes for a very minimal enlargement of the drilled puka to maintain deck integrity and hopefully the fitting will cover any damage to the gelcoat. Once the bit is cut in, raise the tool to vertical and rout out the core. Iíve tried the bent nail, sharpened Allen wrench, etc, without a lot of success and a nearly broken wrist. The Dremel 199 bit works way better, less damage to the gel coat and easy to do for fastener pukas. If youíve other than just s fastener puka, the other tools might work better for routing larger areas though not for me.

3. Once that's done, vacuum out the hole. Fill a syringe with epoxy resin and fill the hole. This soaks the resin into all the void to be sure the core is completely sealed. Have discovered that West Systems has a very slow catalyst (#209) that will allow you to fill a bunch of pukas without the resin kicking in temps over 80 degrees. Use the regular slow hardener (#206) if temp is much below 80 degrees or the epoxy will take forever to go off. If you need the fast catalyst (#205) itís too cold to be working and wait for spring.
https://www.westsystem.com/the-105-s...ins-hardeners/

4. Suck out as much of the resin as you can and mix with a structural filler like West 404. Reinject the thickened epoxy into the puka.

5. After the resin has set redrill the hole. The thickened epoxy makes an incompressible base for the fasteners. Personally believe that most of the leaks into deck core is because the installer puts too much torque on the fastener and compresses the core.

6. Finish by chamfering the edge of the hole with a counter sink bit. The chamfer allows for a thick donut of whatever sealant you use around the fastener shaft. That goes a long way to insuring that the fastener wonít leak again. Whether you decided to do the epoxy thing or not, chamfering the edge of the fastener puka is a must for any hope of a leak free install of any fastener.
Thank you, it is a well written description and i am sure many people beside me will find it useful.
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Old 28-09-2019, 06:35   #12
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by littledevil View Post
Thanks. The anchor roller is already installed, instead of removing/installing back with the epoxy method, i just keep it as it is and keep a close eye on water intrusion.
So how do you keep a close eye on water intrusion? Water gets under goes in the hole and into core you will never see. Remember the bow takes more than rain..... at least mine does. In bad weather many times I find the bow under a wave.....

And when you say bedding compound, what kind? Lots of different stuff..... some suck and some are good. I am a buytle tape guy myself for anything that is bolted on....... best stuff going.

Good luck
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Old 28-09-2019, 20:41   #13
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Re: Drill baby drill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYSail View Post
So how do you keep a close eye on water intrusion? Water gets under goes in the hole and into core you will never see. Remember the bow takes more than rain..... at least mine does. In bad weather many times I find the bow under a wave.....

And when you say bedding compound, what kind? Lots of different stuff..... some suck and some are good. I am a buytle tape guy myself for anything that is bolted on....... best stuff going.

Good luck
Greg
I have been using 3m 5200 stuff. Its easy to buy locally from hardware store so its appealing. Keeping an aye on he water, i am not sure. I guess i really want to believe the bedding works. It was a bitch to install that anchor roller in the forepeak, espacially down below. Hard job for one person, i was using wise grip on top, go down, apply torque, come up etc. etc.
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Old 28-09-2019, 23:37   #14
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Re: Drill baby drill...

If it were me I’d bite the bullet and re-do the job properly (I.e. how roverhi described it to the letter, once you have mainesail’s butyl tape to hand). Then you can be certain it won’t let you down. Or watch Patrick Childress Sailing’s recent YouTube video on what you have to do to fix the problem once a suspect anchor windlass installation has been on your boat.
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