Desperate for Brnz. Seacock Help

[CarinaPDX]

I would just replace it. The alternative of removing the stuck cone, repairing the handle, then lapping the surfaces before reassembly will likely cost more unless you value your time at zero. Buying a new cone means spending a lot of time with lapping compound to get a match between the new cone and worn seat - so even more time and money. And meanwhile you are still out of the water, at what cost per day?

As for choice of seacocks that approaches religion. Personally I use bronze ball valves, and will be installing the Groco flange adapters at the next haulout, instead of a traditional seacock with integral flange. The old cone seacocks are fine but why buy something that needs more maintenance; the ball valves usually use teflon seats and so are a bit more resistant to seizing. The Marelon seacocks are a good solution as long as you don't overtorque them, which can cause eventual failure; not for me as I don't trust my sense of torque to save my boat - YMMV.

Greg

[fish53]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

I would just replace it. The alternative of removing the stuck cone, repairing the handle, then lapping the surfaces before reassembly will likely cost more unless you value your time at zero. Buying a new cone means spending a lot of time with lapping compound to get a match between the new cone and worn seat - so even more time and money. And meanwhile you are still out of the water, at what cost per day?

As for choice of seacocks that approaches religion. Personally I use bronze ball valves, and will be installing the Groco flange adapters at the next haulout, instead of a traditional seacock with integral flange. The old cone seacocks are fine but why buy something that needs more maintenance; the ball valves usually use teflon seats and so are a bit more resistant to seizing. The Marelon seacocks are a good solution as long as you don't overtorque them, which can cause eventual failure; not for me as I don't trust my sense of torque to save my boat - YMMV.

Greg

While I may go with a new valve myself without actually looking it's a hard call. The work is almost the same between repair and replace and a new Spartan valve is probably four or five hundred. I have no idea what the parts might cost but lapping takes about ten minutes and the parts he may need are simply part of the disassembly and reassembly. My personal valve religion would never allow me to use a ball valve as a seacock and plastic is for toilet valves and lawn sprinklers.

[roland stockham]

Given it's age and that you are hauled out I suggest you remove it and get it into the workshop for service/repair. This also give you a chance to check the bolts which can have problems with de-zinctification.

[stormalong]

I do not see any bolts in the pictures. After all those years the tailpiece is pretty much welded into the seacock. Most likely it will have to be destroyed to be removed.

[SouthernPride]

Cut out the old one, repair the hole and install a new seacock. Playing around with the old one in that picture doesn't sound or look like a safe option.

if you still want a work around install a second seacock behind the broken one.

The price of a new won't look expensive is you are a 100 miles out and the old has a problem.

Good luck

[sanibel sailor]

These are W/C brand, used by Bristol. I am familiar with both as I have a Bristol and had a Cape Dory. Shape of "handle" is slightly different on W/C. Willcox/Crittenden is out of business. The body and barrel are fitted/machined together and not sold separately. Lapping is like sanding, hard to take off much material on a significant surface area. Don't ask a machine shop to surface them as then the barrel will be too loose and stick out the end and not seal. A friend found that out the hard way. And the barrel is tapered of course so it can be tensioned , so it cannot be turned end for end without removing the body.

Weld using bronze rod, MUCH stronger than brazing, like 100%.

Nomenclature- The tailpiece is the part sticking up out of the valve to which the hose attaches. The thru-hull is the threaded part the goes thru the hull skin and screws in to valve from outside.

Marelon valves use a proprietary thread on the thruhull part. Helper crossthreaded one for me the afternoon before scheduled Friday launch. Not sold in stores. Several hundred dollars in yard cost waiting on part from Forespar. They did send it free. They can get stuck and they break when you try to unstick them too. For me- aluminum or steel boat- go plastic. Otherwise bronze.

[redsky49]

For all waiting for the exciting conclusion of this story:


+1 on Sanibel Sailor. These are WC devices. Wilcox Crittenden made two lines of seacocks, easily determined by the full base on the premium items, with the cheaper "footed" seacocks used on the Bristols and perhaps other brands. The seacock hose nipple is cast integral with the seacock on these items.



After hours (days!) of frustrating attempts to free the seacock, an angle grinder was taken to the thru hull fitting, grinding it off (from the outside) in a few minutes. The resulting heat softened the adhesive bonding the seacock to the hull and with a twist of the valve, out it came.


Lost the thru hull, saved the valve.


Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[sanibel sailor]

When you knock the barrel out, put a nut on to protect the threads

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Folie

Hello all-

I have read the pdf provided by Alan Mighty. This caught my attention--

"Never, we repeat never, under any circumstances should a thru hull be used to fasten a Seacox"

Does the pdf mean -- 'do not neglect to also use bolts/rivets to attach to hull'?

I have included pictures.

Thank you --

Yes that's what they mean. Many (most?) are built without bolts though. But the risk is if the mushroom corrodes through, or cracks through, the seacock could fall from the hull leaving the gaping hole.... as the mushroom is the only thing holding it on. (Well... I always use 5200 so depending on how you feel about it holding...!) But the problem is you will have no way of knowing if the threads on the mushroom have corroded or cracked apart! The metal thickness from the valley of the thread to the bore of the mushroom is very thin, maybe less than 1/16".

[sanibel sailor]

Bolting them in is recommended. While I am sure there is a good reason for it, I suspect it may go back to the wood boat days when they had less tenacious adhesives and planking swelling and contraction issues to deal with. I have never done it. To me, it is just 2 or 3 more holes in the boat. Being held with 5200, there is no movement between seacock and thruhull to induce cracking. Having cut a couple off, I did not find such a thin area on the thruhull. If the mushroom corrodes, won't those bolts (which are smaller mass) have corroded at the same time? I just don't see much value in it.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

Bolting them in is recommended. While I am sure there is a good reason for it, I suspect it may go back to the wood boat days when they had less tenacious adhesives and planking swelling and contraction issues to deal with. I have never done it. To me, it is just 2 or 3 more holes in the boat. Being held with 5200, there is no movement between seacock and thruhull to induce cracking. Having cut a couple off, I did not find such a thin area on the thruhull. If the mushroom corrodes, won't those bolts (which are smaller mass) have corroded at the same time? I just don't see much value in it.

I guess one could fiberglass the base to the hull inside.
Finally found a pic of mushroom thin section.

[sanibel sailor]

That's pretty bad

[witzgall]

"No maintenance other than a little lube on the wall."

The marelon seacocks are very unforgiving if they are not lubed or the lube fails. A broken handle is often the result. Good if you are very religious about maintaining them, not so good otherwise.

Tapered plug seacocks are the same when it comes to maintaining them. The difference is that they usually give you a good advance notice when the lube is failing, and are much more forgiving of a little extra effort to open/close, until you perform the service on them.

Standard ball valves have none of these issues, but don't last as long as the tapered seacocks. They still last many years. Essentially maintenance free is nice, and the choice for most.

Of course if you have a metal boat, then plastic it is?


Chris

Originally Posted by stormalong

Marelon is not a downgrade. It is an upgrade. No corrosion. No maintenance other than a little lube on the ball. Bronze conical seacocks are a PITA to service and you still have the potential of it corroding away.

If you are in a hurry to get back in the water just buy a new Marelon seacock and tail piece. You will probable have to cut out the old tailpiece regardless of what you do.

[witzgall]

When i worked as a service manager, the rule was no more than 10 minutes, then cut off the thru-hull. When taking into consideration the hourly rate, it was cheaper then working an out to get it off.

Chris

Originally Posted by redsky49

For all waiting for the exciting conclusion of this story:


+1 on Sanibel Sailor. These are WC devices. Wilcox Crittenden made two lines of seacocks, easily determined by the full base on the premium items, with the cheaper "footed" seacocks used on the Bristols and perhaps other brands. The seacock hose nipple is cast integral with the seacock on these items.



After hours (days!) of frustrating attempts to free the seacock, an angle grinder was taken to the thru hull fitting, grinding it off (from the outside) in a few minutes. The resulting heat softened the adhesive bonding the seacock to the hull and with a twist of the valve, out it came.


Lost the thru hull, saved the valve.


Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[Cheechako]

I guess I have been very lucky. Not had a bronze mushroom fitting that wouldn't come out with the proper mushroom wrench. Heat it up if necessary which melts the sealant.