Deck mounted chainplates on a cal 20

[cyrano138]

It doesn't matter how unrelated my question is to the seaworthiness of the Cal 20, every time I post a thread it always comes back down to this.



I don't say that to be snarky, because I totally get it. Going offshore in a boat like this is not something to be taken lightly, and I'm sure that handful of people who have done extended offshore passages in this boat understood that.



While I appreciate concern and input, I'm well aware of the Cal 20's theoretical limitations. What can I say? It's the only boat I've got. I'm going to put it in the water and sail it and find out for myself what the actual limitations are.



Of the three biggest factors that determine safety at sea -- the boat itself, the captain, and the captain's luck -- I can only control one, unless I win the lottery. If that happens I'll buy myself a boat with a better capsize screening formula.

[thomm225]

Just trying to save you some time and heartache.

I certainly wish my boat since I like old school was a Cape George 36 or Rustler 36 like they are using in the GGR.

A Cal 20 looks to be a fun boat, but in big winds and seas offshore, it will be tough to handle so I hope you are young with lots of sailing experience if that is what you plan to do with the boat.

If you are sailing in protected waters though, you'll be fine

Btw photo is of me on my 300 lb. Nacra 17 in 18-20 knot winds luckily though I was in protected waters

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by cyrano138

Of the three biggest factors that determine safety at sea -- the boat itself, the captain, and the captain's luck -- I can only control one, unless I win the lottery. If that happens I'll buy myself a boat with a better capsize screening formula.

No need to win the lottery as my boat has a Capsize Screening Formula of 1.71 and the sale price was $2,000

The lady Emily of Dinghy Dreams had a Great Dane 28 with CSF of 1.60. I think she paid $4,000 for it.

Her present boat a Tripp 29 CSF is 1.82 with I believe sale price was $6,000

And just for comparison

Cape George 36 CSF is 1.47

Rustler 36 CSF 1.72

That being said I like having all the info I can get from my electronics so I don't have to deal with anything having to do with the Capsize Screening Formula.....

Lastly Webb Chiles has crossed oceans on his Moore 24 with CSF of 2.26

[maine50]

I would second Rigging Only as a trusted supplier of all rigging parts. Spartan
also has a good reputation and would choose them if Rigging only doesn't have the deck chainplates

[Jim Cate]

The largest will be 1x19ss x 5/32", which I think clocks in at about 3300 lbs.

well, it seems that the wire will break LONG before the chain plate fails, so either one of the candidate items will do nicely. I've not lived in the states for over 35 years now, so I'm not a good source of info on fastener vendors. I would specify rolled thread 316 socket head cap screws, and the pix indicate that the mounting holes are countersunk. Put some form of sealant on the screws to keep water out and check them now and then for signs of crevice corrosion... should be ok for years! Don't let the naysayers get you down, for most of them don't really know much about what they preach to others.

And Thomm, there has been an active Cal 20 fleet racing in SF Bay for many years, and the conditions there exceed your 25 knots on a regular basis... windward legs and all.
No, they are not ideal for offshore passages, but at least one has done the Transpac and in the hands of a conservative skipper they can survive a lot. And BTW, what is a "military grade" fastener? I've not heard that nomenclature used before.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

well, it seems that the wire will break LONG before the chain plate fails, so either one of the candidate items will do nicely. I've not lived in the states for over 35 years now, so I'm not a good source of info on fastener vendors. I would specify rolled thread 316 socket head cap screws, and the pix indicate that the mounting holes are countersunk. Put some form of sealant on the screws to keep water out and check them now and then for signs of crevice corrosion... should be ok for years! Don't let the naysayers get you down, for most of them don't really know much about what they preach to others.

And Thomm, there has been an active Cal 20 fleet racing in SF Bay for many years, and the conditions there exceed your 25 knots on a regular basis... windward legs and all.
No, they are not ideal for offshore passages, but at least one has done the Transpac and in the hands of a conservative skipper they can survive a lot. And BTW, what is a "military grade" fastener? I've not heard that nomenclature used before.

Jim

Yes I knew about the Single Hand Transpac (SHTP) Cal 20 it was Black Feathers the boat I mentioned above. Here's the link again:

http://digitaleditions.walsworthprin...articleBrowser

And 25 knots in protected water is doable but offshore on a Cal 20 or Beach Cat different story especially if it last for days

The photo of me above on my Nacra 17 was from the 2004 Nationals which was a one design race between Nacra Beach Cats of various sizes in different class. We raced all week. 4 or so races per day

On the day of the photo, we had winds from 18 - 22 knots all day in Pensacola Bay.

Luckily there were no race cancellations.

I think the rule was if the wind stayed above 22 knots for 5 minutes or more that race would be cancelled and we'd wait for the next one after the wind eased off a bit.

My friend Jason, Cruiser2B on CF, suggested the military grade bolts from B and S Bolts in Norfolk. So he picked them up and I repaid him. Price was about the same as a single piece buying from a hardware store. (around $60 for all (18 each) the bolts, washers, and teflon nuts

https://www.bsbolts.com/

I was going to reuse my old bolts, but he and others here said to replace them.

Military grade or mil-spec products are held to a higher standard than commercial hardware or electronics.

When I have to order mil-spec electronics the prices are crazy high. One of our mil-spec computers can cost as much as $600,000. It a very rugged computer though. Bolted in circuit cards and forced air input and output cooling

Regular computer equipment we buy in town from normal vendors is called COTS. Computer Off The Shelf.

Switches can cost $300-$800. It gets crazy but the stuff is well made. Even Mi-spec water proof plugs .....very expensive

https://www.thomasnet.com/insights/m...ing-solutions/

[Bowdrie]

In many areas the term "mil-spec" has no special meaning.
The military buys millions of things/items from "normal" civilian manufacture and they assign a # to the item.
Not all that much different from a civilian ordering a specific part number from a wholesaler/manufacturer.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

In many areas the term "mil-spec" has no special meaning.
The military buys millions of things/items from "normal" civilian manufacture and they assign a # to the item.
Not all that much different from a civilian ordering a specific part number from a wholesaler/manufacturer.

Yes but many of the parts for something like military aircraft, ships, and tanks, for example are mil-spec and much more expensive than civilian parts.

Some of the prices are ridiculously high

Something like a simple SPST Trim Switch can cost $500 or more.

I don't normally deal with nuts and bolts etc. mainly electronics and computer hardware. The bolts were recommended and ended up being at a very good price

[cyrano138]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

well, it seems that the wire will break LONG before the chain plate fails, so either one of the candidate items will do nicely. I've not lived in the states for over 35 years now, so I'm not a good source of info on fastener vendors. I would specify rolled thread 316 socket head cap screws, and the pix indicate that the mounting holes are countersunk. Put some form of sealant on the screws to keep water out and check them now and then for signs of crevice corrosion... should be ok for years! Don't let the naysayers get you down, for most of them don't really know much about what they preach to others.

And Thomm, there has been an active Cal 20 fleet racing in SF Bay for many years, and the conditions there exceed your 25 knots on a regular basis... windward legs and all.
No, they are not ideal for offshore passages, but at least one has done the Transpac and in the hands of a conservative skipper they can survive a lot. And BTW, what is a "military grade" fastener? I've not heard that nomenclature used before.

Jim

No worries about any of it -- I think everyone's intentions are good -- if people are being counterproductive I just don't respond.



Anyway, maybe a little naysaying is healthy.



Now that we're on to the subject of fasteners, though, where do you guys get yours? I had been using Fastenal and west marine but it's getting harder to get 316ss.

[cyrano138]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Btw photo is of me on my 300 lb. Nacra 17 in 18-20 knot winds luckily though I was in protected waters

Get out of those protected waters!
Modern beach cats were adapted from traditional Hawaiian designs in the 40s and 50s specifically for surf. Some of the old Bruce Brown movies have footage of them riding 8 ft swells in California and hawaii. I've had my sunfish and Hobie cats out in 25kt+ in 6 to 8 ft seas here in the gulf. It'll beat you up for sure but there's nothing more thrilling than surfing a catamaran.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by cyrano138

Get out of those protected waters!
Modern beach cats were adapted from traditional Hawaiian designs in the 40s and 50s specifically for surf. Some of the old Bruce Brown movies have footage of them riding 8 ft swells in California and hawaii. I've had my sunfish and Hobie cats out in 25kt+ in 6 to 8 ft seas here in the gulf. It'll beat you up for sure but there's nothing more thrilling than surfing a catamaran.

I did all that already.......on day sailing days when not racing

I've owned and raced 2 Hobie 16's, a Nacra 6.0, and a Nacra 17. The last two had spinnakers

Our yearly 100 mile race started in Ft Walton Beach, FL then out into the Gulf under the Destin Bridge, round the sea buoy then sail 55 miles or so West coming back in Pensacola Pass then back to Ft Walton.

First time my son and I did that race was in 1997. Finished in 12 hours. 82 boats on the starting line that September.

It was a fun race but long. Race start was at 0700 and you had to be at the starting line by 0650 or so. I did that race 5 times

That was one day I was referring too above.

We also used to come in the inlets here on our 14'-16' power boats on the back of waves.

I'm getting close to 70 years old now, and the last thing I need to be doing is riding the surf on a beach cat.

I have enough trouble completing my weekly 3 mile run, jog, walk plus a few exercised before hand.

No, my Bristol 27 is the boat for me now. A little larger boat would be nice but not sure if I need it yet.

Won't know until I spend a couple weeks on this one.

I have done 5-6 day cruises but that's the limit. I'm still working.

A friend of mine after owning a Westsail 32 is now going back to an Alberg 30 so bigger is not always better.

[Madehn]

You can get almost any fastener known to God and man from McMaster Carr. They carry various grades of bolts in many types of materials. Quick reasonable and great service. No affiliation but have been using them for years. Very satisfied customer.

[cyrano138]

Originally Posted by Madehn

You can get almost any fastener known to God and man from McMaster Carr. They carry various grades of bolts in many types of materials. Quick reasonable and great service. No affiliation but have been using them for years. Very satisfied customer.

Sounds great thank you. I've ordered from them before. I didn't know if they have the qc someone referred to above.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by cyrano138

Sounds great thank you. I've ordered from them before. I didn't know if they have the qc someone referred to above.

McMaster has a “specifications met” category when filtering hardware, they have mil-spec stuff. Mil-spec is MSxxxx, generally equal or interchangeable with NASxxxx (national aerospace standards). Not all types and sizes though, and it does cost more (sometimes way more).

My opinion is it would be overkill for a recreational boat. I think anything from McMaster is likely to have way better QC than the hardware store or, the worst of the worst: Amazon. And I’m not even above using Amazon ‘assortment bin’ hardware in non-critical places.

[1980240D]

I owned a Cal 20 for 15 years when I was younger. Beat the snot out of it on the SFbay. The PO upgraded all of the chain plates and rigging using Steve Seals designs. Steve Seal was the Cal 20 guru out of Alameda. I am not sure if he is still fabricating his upgrades, but would be worth a call. He still has a website.
Seal's Spars and Rigging