Cutlass Bearing and 3M 5200

[Tmacmi]

I was reading Calder and recommends using 5200 at the end to secure it into the bearing arm.

Can that possibly be a good idea?

[Suijin]

I've never heard of that but I suppose if you can't get a good press fit that you're confident about for some reason it's a reasonable solution.

[Pete7]

Really? mine has a couple of grub screws that bite into the brass and hold it in place. The rope cutter bolts also enter the brass sleeve.

Given the amount of violence to get the damn thing out, it ain't going anywhere, so not sure I want it gluing in.

Pete

[HopCar]

I have tremendous respect for Calder and I’m not afraid to use 5200 but I’ve never heard of doing that. Maybe he means just a tiny amount to keep water from getting between the strut and the bearing shell?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Really? mine has a couple of grub screws that bite into the brass and hold it in place. The rope cutter bolts also enter the brass sleeve.

Given the amount of violence to get the damn thing out, it ain't going anywhere, so not sure I want it gluing in.

Pete

+1


Can you imagine getting it back out again, glued in with 5200?


Quite the contrary -- I would grease it well, to facilitate the next change. What I in fact did a few months ago.


The grub screws will keep it in good stable position during its useful life.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Really? mine has a couple of grub screws that bite into the brass and hold it in place. The rope cutter bolts also enter the brass sleeve.

Given the amount of violence to get the damn thing out, it ain't going anywhere, so not sure I want it gluing in.

Pete

Mine slips in rather loosely, I assume a PO may have had it reamed out, and I have had one back out before.
What I do now is once I replace it, I take an automatic center punch and mark the cutlass where the grub screws go, then drill a pretty deep hole in it, and thread the grub screws into the brass part of the Cutlass.
So that holds it in place, and it’s still easily removable. Too soon to declare victory, in a year or two I should know for sure.

I personally wouldn’t use 5200, except maybe as a small ring at the end.
I was advised to use Epoxy, but am trying the spot the Cutlass and grub screws first, cause Epoxy of 5200 may make it darn near impossible to remove.
I know they are supposed to be press fit, and if they are, then for sure there is no need for 5200.

[billknny]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Mine slips in rather loosely, I assume a PO may have had it reamed out, and I have had one back out before.
What I do now is once I replace it, I take an automatic center punch and mark the cutlass where the grub screws go, then drill a pretty deep hole in it, and thread the grub screws into the brass part of the Cutlass.
So that holds it in place, and it’s still easily removable. Too soon to declare victory, in a year or two I should know for sure.

I personally wouldn’t use 5200, except maybe as a small ring at the end.
I was advised to use Epoxy, but am trying the spot the Cutlass and grub screws first, cause Epoxy of 5200 may make it darn near impossible to remove.
I know they are supposed to be press fit, and if they are, then for sure there is no need for 5200.

The difference is with epoxy you can put wax or PVA on the shell of the bearing and the epoxy will not stick to it. It will take up the "sloppy fit," which is a bad thing. A cutless bearing should not be moving around.

I had a custom strut made out of carbon fiber and fiberglass and that's how it was made. Literally molded right around the cutless bearing--which just pulled out easy as pie when needed.

[Tmacmi]

There are no grub screws in this strut. Calder recommends using 5200 in those instances when there are no grub screws to prevent the bearing from spinning in the strut.

Having said that it was a son of a gun removing the old bearing.

[JayH]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I was advised to use Epoxy, but am trying the spot the Cutlass and grub screws first, cause Epoxy of 5200 may make it darn near impossible to remove.

On my last two bearing changes the (different) mechanics have used epoxy to seat the new bearing in the tube.

Removal procedure is to carefully cut through the bearing wall with a reciprocating saw, then drive a screwdriver between the bearing and the tube to break the epoxy bond (use heat as necessary) and fold the bearing in on itself, then withdraw the crumpled bearing with pliers.

The second guy had to realign the strut which also involved completely removing the first guy's epoxy. Didn't faze him at all. He used a combination of a bore brush and the same screwdriver to chip it out.

Originally Posted by billknny

I had a custom strut made out of carbon fiber and fiberglass and that's how it was made.

The reason the second guy had to realign the strut is because I hit something offshore at night and it bent the prop and the strut. I didn't even notice the strut was bent until we hauled for a bottom job months later. We fixed it in a Central American boat yard with a come along and a propane torch. I'm pretty sure a carbon strut would have snapped, disabled the engine, and been hopeless for repair.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by JayH

On my last two bearing changes the (different) mechanics have used epoxy to seat the new bearing in the tube.

Removal procedure is to carefully cut through the bearing wall with a reciprocating saw, then drive a screwdriver between the bearing and the tube to break the epoxy bond (use heat as necessary) and fold the bearing in on itself, then withdraw the crumpled bearing with pliers.

I’m a full keel so of course the tube is mounted in the keel itself, no strut. Removing the tube starts with removing the tube, then there is enough play so that the shaft can be removed or I guess maybe left in place, but normally the tube has to be removed to gain play for the shaft to slide beside of the rudder.
In order to facilitate shaft removal I had a groove cut into the rudder so there is now clearance to remove the shaft leaving the tube in place.
With the Cutlass not being a press fit it can be removed leaving the shaft in place, then of course the new one I slide over the shaft pushed into the tube by hand and held in place with the grub screws.
It’s a 30 min one man job max now, but would be a two person half day job if the tube has to come out, cause somebody has be in the boat to hold the nuts on the tube’s bolts.
If spotting the Cutlass deeply works and I think it will because with no spot the Cutlass takes quite a while before if spins and even then it doesn’t usually spin much then I can change one easily by myself, hardest thing is removing the prop and I have a special puller that fits the prop so that’s easy too.

If it doesn’t work then I will have to have a new tube made so that the Cutlass is a press fit, like it’s really supposed to be.
I should know in I assume a couple of years at the next bottom job as I replace the Cutlass then regardless of wear.
Next bottom job will be a bear as I have some blisters to deal with.

Epoxy is hard and relatively inflexible of course and actually not a strong metal adhesive.
5200 on the other hand is flexible enough so that it is a pretty good adhesive and I think would be harder to remove than Epoxy, as you said you can chip out Epoxy, try that with 5200.

[George DuBose]

What a thread! Epoxy, 5200 to set a cutless bearing. Are you guys using the right size of cutless? My boat is almost 50 years old and the cutless bearings I have bought are able to be pressed in.

If one doesn't have set screws in the "P" strut, it isn't too difficult to tap a few holes and use set screws.

Getting the cutless bearing out without the proper tool is possible, but why make life more difficult.

[Tmacmi]

Originally Posted by George DuBose

What a thread! Epoxy, 5200 to set a cutless bearing. Are you guys using the right size of cutless? My boat is almost 50 years old and the cutless bearings I have bought are able to be pressed in.

If one doesn't have set screws in the "P" strut, it isn't too difficult to tap a few holes and use set screws.

Getting the cutless bearing out without the proper tool is possible, but why make life more difficult.

I'm not sure what to say, I didn't make it up it came from Calder. He recommended it for the last 1/4" or so to keep it from spinning in the strut.

At the end of the day this why I'm asking. It didn't make sense to me. The bearing was hell to get out of the strut. I'm even worried about getting back in.

[Reefmagnet]

If it's not a sloppy fit, why bother? Can't be too hard to add a grub screw or two if need be. Having said that, the old adage that "if it aint broke don't fix it" comes to mind.



However, the best solution, I think, if you ever think you might need to replace the bearing again and it is a sloppy fit and the housing is some kind of metal is to use an extra low temperature melting point epoxy (they do exist). This will happily hold the bearing in place for many years and will require only modest heating with a heat source to allow the bearing to be pressed out for replacement.

[George DuBose]

Cool the cutless bearing, but do not freeze. Heat the "P" strut a little and press in the bearing. If the cutless bearing is too loose, it must be the wrong size.

Use set screws, not 5200. That's nuts.

[cal40john]

Both my friend's Cal34 and my Cal40 have a loose fit. These Cals have the prop shaft exiting the keel, no strut. I don't know what the previous owner had done, but after a couple of years the cutless bearing swam up the stern tube. You could see the spiral scratches on the outside of bearing made by the grub screws. My friend helped me by installing it the way he did his boat. File a couple of flats where the grub screws contact the bearing. Take out the slop with brass shim stock.

As for being the wrong size looks like bearings mostly come in 1/8th inch jumps. There most certainly was not 62 thousandths of shim stock in there.