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19-09-2017, 16:48
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#16
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
My numbers to get to the 25.3 linear feet was for 120 sq ft which includes all sides of the box, including the top and bottoms. I just realized that I included the interior divider in those numbers and I don't think the insulation of the divider has to be R-30, so I would be able to cut back on that by about 4 sq ft, assuming I use half the R value for it. I don't remember seeing what that R should but I bet Kollman has a number.
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Rich ( SV third day) has the specs.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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19-09-2017, 18:34
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#17
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: Cryogel Z
Yes , we did the math over and over again . Doing a box completely in Aerogel was cost prohibitive . Yes, you can get an additional 3" of internal width in your box, but at what cost . We build boxes with a combination of polyiso and XPS or blue board . Our test boxes are just built using XPS only , in this application size does not matter . We build lots of doors for customers using Aerogel . High R value and hingbility. No fun lifting out a brick to get into your fridge . If you do go with the Aerogel you can usually find the best prices on eBay .
Regards John
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19-09-2017, 20:40
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Boat: Caliber 40 LRC
Posts: 504
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Re: Cryogel Z
I've done the calculations for a possible box upgrade myself. R-10 per inch, 3" = 76.2mm = 8 layers @ 10mm per layer.
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20-09-2017, 09:56
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran
Posts: 7,145
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
Thanks Senor. I did see that but wasn't sure exactly what it meant. I did see one place where they said they would not guarantee the product if it was cut?? I guess it must fray at the cut edges so the tape.
What does the 3M 77 do? I was thinking just too stick it to the walls or to stick each layer to the other.
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Cryogel, Aerogel and Pyrogel are all similar products with overlapping temperature ranges.
It doesn't fray as it is not woven per se, probably rolled and pressed.
It is composed of very long, tiny interlocking random curly threads.
We used 3M77 to lightly spray the surface (after peeling off the foil ) when adding another layer.
The last layer obviously had its foil layer intact.
All corners where foil met another piece of foil were aluminum taped.
__________________
The question is not, "Who will let me?"
The question is,"Who is going to stop me?"
Ayn Rand
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20-09-2017, 10:04
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#20
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: Cryogel Z
Yes , this stuff is a bugger to cut , gets all over you and wear a good mask. . For bigger cuts I actually resorted to the table saw !
As for a vapor barrier we treat it like you would any other insulation , encapsulate it if you can.
I have posted this video before but here it is again if anyone missed it . These little doors usually require around 100$ worth of Aerogel .
Regards John.
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20-09-2017, 10:08
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by senormechanico
Cryogel, Aerogel and Pyrogel are all similar products with overlapping temperature ranges.
It doesn't fray as it is not woven per se, probably rolled and pressed.
It is composed of very long, tiny interlocking random curly threads.
We used 3M77 to lightly spray the surface (after peeling off the foil ) when adding another layer.
The last layer obviously had its foil layer intact.
All corners where foil met another piece of foil were aluminum taped.
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So you take the foil off because the next layer won't stick if not, or, does it have something to do with having one and only one foil side on the very outside of the box insulation. I have seen that stated before but not real sure on why. Moisture?
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20-09-2017, 10:15
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine
Yes , this stuff is a bugger to cut , gets all over you and wear a good mask. . For bigger cuts I actually resorted to the table saw !
As for a vapor barrier we treat it like you would any other insulation , encapsulate it if you can.
I have posted this video before but here it is again if anyone missed it . These little doors usually require around 100$ worth of Aerogel .
Regards John.
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Thanks again John. Your comments have been very helpful. I have come to the same conclusion relative to the cost/benefit, and, doing the doors only makes sense for the reason you give.
I did get a message back from the seller on eBay. He offered a substantial reduction in price for larger quantities. He typically sells very small pieces and says he actually loses some money on those but does them anyway as a way to promote the material. He lowered his shipping too but not to what I would think it really should be. I think the width of the roll makes the cost higher. Pacor still has the best prices from what I see though. But it is just too expensive to use for an entire box unless you have a larger budget than most, especially me.
This has been very educational. Now I need to figure out how to remove the interior of my box only through the top openings and the one side door. Taking the top off would be a huge project for this particular boat. I did it before on my Whidby. That was hard but relatively straight forward. This would be very hard because of the original teak trim and the time it would take. Putting it all back together will be just as hard but foamboard will make it easier as it is easy to lay and overlap. The skin will be interesting though.
Thanks for all the suggestions and comments.
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20-09-2017, 10:38
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#23
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Cryogel Z
John here is an interesting question which would be better in a refrigerator install aerogel cryogel or pyrogel ? ( remember I only have 2 1/2 inches space on 3 sides so need to maximize)
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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20-09-2017, 10:45
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#24
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: Cryogel Z
It's actually not all that hard to reisulate thru the door . You need a good cut off saw to get the old liner out. A pair of ear protectors, it gets load in there and your ears will ring if you don't . I lay up the new liners with fiberglass and let them sit in the sun for a week to let them off gas. I will be doing a blog post on my site and a video going thru the whole process, just takes time . I can walk you thru it once you get started .
Regards John
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20-09-2017, 11:45
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#25
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul
John here is an interesting question which would be better in a refrigerator install aerogel cryogel or pyrogel ? ( remember I only have 2 1/2 inches space on 3 sides so need to maximize)
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Always hard posting from my phone , "typos"
If you look at the specs all the Aerogel products have just about the same thermal conductivity . Seems some are made for heat and others for supercold . I was actually thinking of ordering some of the Pyrogel to wrap the hot exhaust from my onboard furnace. Looks like it would do a much better job then the material I have on it now .
Maybe I will drop them a line and ask if one is any better then the other for boaters on board refrigeration systems.
Ok Done , lets see what they have to say .
Regards John.
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20-09-2017, 12:11
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#26
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: puget sound washington
Boat: 1968 Islander bahama 24 hull 182, 1963 columbia 29 defender. hull # 60
Posts: 12,121
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdEh Marine
Always hard posting from my phone , "typos"
If you look at the specs all the Aerogel products have just about the same thermal conductivity . Seems some are made for heat and others for supercold . I was actually thinking of ordering some of the Pyrogel to wrap the hot exhaust from my onboard furnace. Looks like it would do a much better job then the material I have on it now .
Maybe I will drop them a line and ask if one is any better then the other for boaters on board refrigeration systems.
Ok Done , lets see what they have to say .
Regards John.
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That would be great. Was thinking along the lines that pyrogel has a significantly higher temperature max .
I understand the problem of posting from a phone . Not all misspelling some is my fat thumbs.
__________________
Non illigitamus carborundum
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21-09-2017, 08:30
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: Cryogel Z
I just got a response to my inquiry to Pacor as to what R value Cryogel Z has. This was the response. I thanked them for the reply but it wasn't especially helpful. It is beginning to seem that stating an R value is taboo for some reason.
"Joe, Thanks for your inquiry. I recommend you try a piece of material from our website. You will need to enclose the insulation.
Cryogel® Z – Pacor, Inc.
Todd"
Frankly, I appreciated that they got back to me at all since my order would be peanuts compared to their usual customers. I did mention that having a piece of the material in my hands wouldn't really do anything for me other than for show-and-tell. And I mentioned that the price is prohibitive.
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21-09-2017, 08:51
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#28
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Toronto On Canada
Boat: Bristol 45.5
Posts: 736
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Re: Cryogel Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum
I just got a response to my inquiry to Pacor as to what R value Cryogel Z has. This was the response. I thanked them for the reply but it wasn't especially helpful. It is beginning to seem that stating an R value is taboo for some reason.
"Joe, Thanks for your inquiry. I recommend you try a piece of material from our website. You will need to enclose the insulation.
Cryogel® Z – Pacor, Inc.
Todd"
Frankly, I appreciated that they got back to me at all since my order would be peanuts compared to their usual customers. I did mention that having a piece of the material in my hands wouldn't really do anything for me other than for show-and-tell. And I mentioned that the price is prohibitive.
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I put the question directly to Aerogel .
Aspen Aerogels Industrial Aerogel Insulation - Home
I worded it a bit differently, asking them what would be the best product in there line for our type of application.
I have yet to get a response but I am hopeful, its only been a day .
Regards John.
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21-09-2017, 09:21
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Anacortes
Boat: previous - Whitby 42 new - Goldenwave 44
Posts: 1,835
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Re: Cryogel Z
I just received this very courteous reply to my reply to Pacor:
" Joe, Thank you for your feedback. I should have addressed your question about R values in my initial reply. There isn’t an exact correlation for converting thermal conductivity, k, to R, but typically 1” of aerogel is close to R10. Unfortunately, our company is not well suited to address individual consumers. That is a reason why we added the online store. Aerogel is a premium product, but I am sure other materials will likely meet your need as well.
I appreciate your comments regarding our website. We are updating now and we will add more content on aerogel.
Todd"
Their pricing seems to be the most competitive of any I have seen although I don't know what shipping would be on top of that.
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21-09-2017, 09:25
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Boat: Caliber 40 LRC
Posts: 504
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Re: Cryogel Z
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