Crack in Keel for boat under contract

[MicHughV]

"2-3 times the quoted repair price" ....yep, I think you are on the right track.....and "expecting the seller to make some level of accommodation" the other part of the puzzle...seems like things are falling into place now...hope it all works out for you....

if I was the seller in this situation, I'd certainly want to be " accommodating" to end this and move on....and get out from the yard fees...

[PaulBartomioli]

Originally Posted by Notyetsinking

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, I don't think the owner would let me do that, as it is not yet my boat. Is there some other way I could get a more definitive answer through a less invasive means? Maybe some sort of imaging that can be done to see what's happening under the skin? The couple times I've visited the boat I didn't notice it, so I am happy with the surveyor for the catch. I suspect it may be cosmetic, but that is not really an area I would be comfortable leaving to suspicion.

FWIW. One of the YouTube channels had something similar that was an issue. There was discoloration around the crack, which turned out to be evidence of water. I do not see any discoloration. What does the owner say?

[dave6017]

I would consider reaching out to the manufacturer have them make an assessment.

No one would know better than them on how it was constructed and what could possibly cause it. You've got nothing to loose, but time waiting on there reply.

[raahell]

I totally concur with McHughV. Visual evidence indicates the keel has been very recently repainted so likely the seller knew of a problem significant enough that s/he had work done to it and repainted. Spidey senses should be tingling at this point.

The fact that the crack is inline with the leading edge suggests that it's not a keel bolt uncommonly close to the keel surface (A keel bolt related mark would be vertical) but more to do with a bonding issue of components that make up the keel construction. If the boat is semi-custom the keel is probably not lead unless they took a cast-lead keel from another production boat. So it might be welded up steel with lead poured inside. It's pretty hard to make a form in steel of that complex a shape so likely the leading edge and bulb are fairing pieces added on to make it hydrodynamically efficient. What materials and bonding procedures were used, if that is the case?

If you tap all over the keel with a sounding hammer you might find that the leading edge and bulb give you a different result (softer material) than, lets say, the flat side (steel casing) of the keel. Maybe then you can surmise how the keel was fabricated and you can go back to the seller and tell him what you know. Once you're armed with enough truth the seller may relent and tell you what's really going on and/or move to a price that reflects the uncertainties. Or you walk away...

[oceanluvr]

Just my opinion but I would:

1. Walk away from the deal or
2. At the owners expense get a mutually agreed to expert/shop to determine exactly what is the issue and the cost to repair and
3. Assuming it is a minor issue, have the owner reduce the price equal to the repair

There are loads of stories about boats that passed surveys with flying colors only to have serious issues, after the sale. Good luck!

[Nibiruwayne]

Originally Posted by Notyetsinking

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I don't think the owner would let me do that, as it is not yet my boat. Is there some other way I could get a more definitive answer through a less invasive means? Maybe some sort of imaging that can be done to see what's happening under the skin? The couple times I've visited the boat I didn't notice it, so I am happy with the surveyor for the catch. I suspect it may be cosmetic, but that is not really an area I would be comfortable leaving to suspicion.

If you’re sold on this boat- then I would get a hard estimate from the yard as to cost to remove the keel , inspect the bolts and replace them, assess any structural damages and it might involve removing the engine or tanks for access to the keel bolts. Whatever that estimate is , I would insist on it coming off the price. A crack will allow seawater into the crevice and cools cause deterioration of the bolt(s).
I passed on a boat for this reason some years ago.

[Knotical]

You have received several helpful opinions and ideas from members here, seems like the problem may be:

-defect in fairing (less likely and best outcome $$ wise)
-crack in line with the outside helper keel bolt (can grind the outside fairing and pour colored water near the keel bolt and see if it comes out of the crack)
-something related to keel construction with dissimilar metals (will need manufacturer's plans to assess)

With regards to the contract if your surveyor has not prepared a formal report you should ask him to put in the keel issue and that may need to be further investigated. From your posts, it seems like he does not think it is a major issue, and if he puts that in his report it may not help you to walk away if you want. I am not a lawyer but I think his report is considered a legal document and your opinion, well, an opinion I guess (maybe a lawyer or broker can chime in).

Good luck and please report on the final outcome.

[proudsailor]

This has been a great thread. I continually learn from this forum and appreciate Notyetsinking posing this issue to this forum's wealth of experience on which we opine. Please share the outcome when the work is finally done and what was done. Or whether you walked away and why.

Many are suggesting run! Not sure that is a reasonable answer. If the boat is niche, otherwise well constructed, and at a cost that the buyer believes is very good relative to all the time and effort placed trying to figure out the issue, it would be a well informed purchase. Personally my risk tolerance is pretty low, but I'm a healthcare professional, not an engineer. I would be forced to rely heavily on surveyors who even by Notyetsinking's experience cannot be counted on as the correct arbiter of a problem.

Notyetsinking- see you on the bay!

[Leighpilot]

The owner doesn’t have to be happy about you doing it. Tell him to do it. It’s your money and it’s a valid concern.

[Happ]

Originally Posted by Notyetsinking

Hi,

I am under contract to buy a 1997 41 foot boat that is in great shape except for a weird crack in the keel. I am looking for opinions as to what this could be and if it is something to be concerned about. The surveyor (accredited, for what it’s worth) wasn’t sure what to make of it, so why not let the internet have some fun. I am going out to look at the boat again, with an in-depth look at the bilge to make sure everything looks ok but this doesn’t look like a grounding issue to me (plus the boat has been on the Chesapeake for some time so I can’t imagine a bay grounding would cause this). Given the orientation of the crack, it couldn’t be a keel/hull issue.My only thought then is it could be the keel bolt, though I would expect the loads generated by those bolts to create a field of cracks rather than one like this. I really have no idea. So any advice on how to proceed would also be greatly appreciated!

Many years ago I skippered a boat where do to a lack of coordinating between suppliers the first 14 boats had a keel problem. It wasn’t a cheap fix. If i was a betting man my guess is something hit the leading edge of the keel. Crab pot? They ground out the damage and applied new material to reshape the keel. Since then some water has gotten between the keel and the repair. I would straight out ask what repairs have been done to the keel? Ask for receipts. If the answer is none see if you can do a search for an insurance claim. If the answer is no to both I would as others have suggested have the owner grind out the crack so you can see why this is happening. If he refuses he has something to hide. Based on the shape of the hull it looks like a reasonably new boat. I’m sure you could find another. I know It’s hard to walk away after investing all this time and money but the problem is easily in the thousand’s to repair even if it is just cosmetic.

[wallandj]

Since it appears to be a blister of some kind, ask if the boat was ever struck by lightening or near to a strike. And check if a lightening ground is attached to a forward keel bolt.



Or, if the keel is encapsulated/glassed, could it be some glass mat has lifted allowing sea water intrusion?

[Piratenorm]

Surly the seller wants to get to the bottom of this crack too. No puns. It’s an encapsulated keel I believe, grinding it down to the lead should be something he himself would do. It’s not something to be ignored. And it’s easy to put back to a cosmetic fix once investigated. It might be something the two of you share the cost in. We try for a 50/50 split on issues like this at my brokerage. After all, once you’ve fixed it it’s something you’ll never have to worry about going forward.
If he steadfastly refuses, I’d walk away.

[Boatwright]

Please, please do not be rushed into a bad decision.

If the seller has made any effort to conceal or minimize this, he has an unenforceable sales agreement. You may end up in court to recover your deposit. But a lost deposit is a whole lot cheaper than replacing a keel. You should have no problem with a reputable broker cancelling a "pending survey" contract.

That the surveyor didn't offer an opinion too often means the surveyor was chosen by the buyer or broker with the understanding that future business means not screwing up a sale. Find another surveyor.

I agree with what others have said about keel bolt corrosion, etc. There is also a discolored area on the hull bottom just forward of the keel that needs explaining I suspect this boat had a hard grounding, which partially detached the keel. A poor repair was made. I would also be looking for signs of repair in the entire bilge area. In addition to the damage forward, the bilge area aft should be closely inspected. An undamaged hull should show a normal amount of bilge crud. A shiny clean, freshly painted bilge is also a warning flag.

Finally, there is no such thing as a bargain boat. There are expensive boats in A-1 shape. And there are less expensive boats that will require $$$ and lots of your time and effort.

[Visarend]

Personally, I would avoid getting involved in:
- kind of a one off design;
- a light racer structure;
- high aspect fin keels.
And that, with no apparent issue, all shipshape and in perfect conditions.
The slightest sign of possible keel issue would prompt me to advice my friend to walk away. My two cents, having built my boat (encapsulated keel) and surveyed/fixed many.

[Bill_Giles]

I assume that you have Googled your make and model of boat with ‘keel crack’ in the search term? I would definitely not buy it without knowing absolutely what it is. It is troubling as well that the seller does not know - is that why it is up for sale?

It is disturbing that your surveyor could not give you an answer.

Without grinding away the surface there is always ultrasound or x-ray examination.