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18-05-2022, 00:34
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#16
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,856
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
Good tip on the glue gun, thank you. I can’t find anything remotely as powerful at Bunnings (our equivalent of Home Depot), the highest wattage was a DeWalt at 95 Watts. A big improvement on the 10 Watt model I guess. I’ll look around some more.
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Surely you have an online source for professional tools? These glue guns aren’t sold at Home Depot either. You don’t have Amazon?
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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18-05-2022, 01:03
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Boat: Shuttleworth Advantage
Posts: 2,246
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Question are you looking to save weight by using honeycomb?
I made my bimini from this stuff. Unfortunately, the PP honeycomb does not handle traffic well. It is very stiff but point loads (feet) cause the core to flex and result in uneven depressions or even delamination. I do not walk or need to walk on my bimini and for the curved shape it was ideal material. I know of a power cat that was built from Polycore and the resulting soft/spongy deck had to be drilled and filled with epoxy.
If you want strength and lightness then you should opt for phenolic (paper) honeycomb with epoxy glass / kevlar / carbon skins. This comes as a finished product just needing to be primed and painted. The majority of my internal fit out is made from this and the results are excellent. It is strong enough to take iron on melamine edging which is fast and light and if you opt for 15mm board it will also accept clip on ABS edging strips for vulnerable or high wear edges. It is used as flooring panels in aircraft cargo holds. Unfortunately it is much more expensive than PP.
https://www.euro-composites.com/en/sandwich-paneele-2/
Hog and bog makes for a relatively heavy panel negating a lot of the weight saving benefits. It is also a very very time consuming process.
Using a combination of iron on edging, more difficult to use on PP core as it deforms if too hot, painting and then applying edge trim also works well.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...1ece5b%21%21sh
Rounded lipped edges and or corners can also be produced using a router by cutting a groove through one face and the core, with a width of 1/4 the circumference (2 x 20mm x PI)/4 and then heat bending the outer face to form a curve and tapping the internal right angle.
Honeycomb does not cut well with a jig saw, wanders round the pockets, so router cutting is the best option. I would also recommend a sheet metal saw for perfect straight hand cutting.
https://gandmtools.co.uk/product/she...sed-old-stock/
Hope the project goes well.
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18-05-2022, 02:19
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
Surely you have an online source for professional tools? These glue guns aren’t sold at Home Depot either. You don’t have Amazon?
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I don’t have a delivery address for a start.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 02:30
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#19
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
Surely you have an online source for professional tools? These glue guns aren’t sold at Home Depot either. You don’t have Amazon?
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There are a few big tool retailers nearby. I just found one with a 50 Watt model for AU$343. I think the 95 Watt version from Bunnings at AU$49 appears to be better value.
I am struggling to see how they think that is a reasonable price.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 02:32
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupaia
Question are you looking to save weight by using honeycomb?
I made my bimini from this stuff. Unfortunately, the PP honeycomb does not handle traffic well. It is very stiff but point loads (feet) cause the core to flex and result in uneven depressions or even delamination. I do not walk or need to walk on my bimini and for the curved shape it was ideal material. I know of a power cat that was built from Polycore and the resulting soft/spongy deck had to be drilled and filled with epoxy.
If you want strength and lightness then you should opt for phenolic (paper) honeycomb with epoxy glass / kevlar / carbon skins. This comes as a finished product just needing to be primed and painted. The majority of my internal fit out is made from this and the results are excellent. It is strong enough to take iron on melamine edging which is fast and light and if you opt for 15mm board it will also accept clip on ABS edging strips for vulnerable or high wear edges. It is used as flooring panels in aircraft cargo holds. Unfortunately it is much more expensive than PP.
https://www.euro-composites.com/en/sandwich-paneele-2/
Hog and bog makes for a relatively heavy panel negating a lot of the weight saving benefits. It is also a very very time consuming process.
Using a combination of iron on edging, more difficult to use on PP core as it deforms if too hot, painting and then applying edge trim also works well.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...1ece5b%21%21sh
Rounded lipped edges and or corners can also be produced using a router by cutting a groove through one face and the core, with a width of 1/4 the circumference (2 x 20mm x PI)/4 and then heat bending the outer face to form a curve and tapping the internal right angle.
Honeycomb does not cut well with a jig saw, wanders round the pockets, so router cutting is the best option. I would also recommend a sheet metal saw for perfect straight hand cutting.
https://gandmtools.co.uk/product/she...sed-old-stock/
Hope the project goes well.
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Too late, I’ve bought this stuff already. Cautions noted about point loading etc. I’ll proceed with care.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 03:40
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW
Boat: Chamberlin 11.6 catamaran
Posts: 872
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Re: Composite construction challenge
I have used the plastic honeycomb from Trojan. It is okay, but it is not as good as foam. It doesn't make as nice panels as foam does - not quite as stiff. But I have used it as flooring - I put 600gm biax over it and don't have any issues with any foot prints.
I use rout out and fill. I find it doesn't take too long and certainly I don't think it weighs much at all. I use a screwdriver to dig out about 10mm of core, and then I put the filler in and use a specially made coving tool, with a round cut into the end of it, to make a smooth surface.
I think rout and fill is a pretty good way to do an edge. Getting timber edging to do the generously radiused corners I use, would take a lot of wood, or a fair bit of effort to get right. So I use this method as I find it easiest.
I have tried other methods but keep coming back to dig out and fill.
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18-05-2022, 03:45
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Australia
Boat: BUILT!!! Roberts Mauritius 43ft
Posts: 3,601
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
There are a few big tool retailers nearby. I just found one with a 50 Watt model for AU$343. I think the 95 Watt version from Bunnings at AU$49 appears to be better value.
I am struggling to see how they think that is a reasonable price.
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Matt
I know nothing about "hot glue guns" but I'm puzzled as to why you'd buy anything like that from Bunnings. I buy all my gear on eBay.
Apparently high wattage is important? If I decide to buy one what would be wrong with this for $23?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/27296141...Cclp%3A2563228
http://vi.vipr.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBayI...2&secureDesc=0
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18-05-2022, 13:18
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by catsketcher
I have used the plastic honeycomb from Trojan. It is okay, but it is not as good as foam. It doesn't make as nice panels as foam does - not quite as stiff. But I have used it as flooring - I put 600gm biax over it and don't have any issues with any foot prints.
I use rout out and fill. I find it doesn't take too long and certainly I don't think it weighs much at all. I use a screwdriver to dig out about 10mm of core, and then I put the filler in and use a specially made coving tool, with a round cut into the end of it, to make a smooth surface.
I think rout and fill is a pretty good way to do an edge. Getting timber edging to do the generously radiused corners I use, would take a lot of wood, or a fair bit of effort to get right. So I use this method as I find it easiest.
I have tried other methods but keep coming back to dig out and fill.
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Yes, the Trojan guys warned me that it wouldn’t be as smooth as the foam. But like you, they felt it would be suitable for flooring.
I liked it because of the price and the weight.
None of the places where I am using it will be visible. Even on the floor it will have a 10 mm layer of fake timber over it.
I’m going to experiment with peel ply too, see if I can get a nice finish that way. If so I’ll use it in some places where the finish does matter, if not, as you suggest, I’ll do those in foam.
Nice to find a fellow Trojan customer.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 13:54
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#24
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,856
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
Yes, the Trojan guys warned me that it wouldn’t be as smooth as the foam. But like you, they felt it would be suitable for flooring.
I liked it because of the price and the weight.
None of the places where I am using it will be visible. Even on the floor it will have a 10 mm layer of fake timber over it.
I’m going to experiment with peel ply too, see if I can get a nice finish that way. If so I’ll use it in some places where the finish does matter, if not, as you suggest, I’ll do those in foam.
Nice to find a fellow Trojan customer.
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We tried to break a small piece that a shop had for demo: it only had a single layer of 8 ounce cloth on each side… it was amazingly strong and light.
For a good finish (reduce print through) use 1708 material first layer with the random strands towards the core and the too layer with them facing outward, with more than needed resin on that top layer, followed by peel ply. I think it’ll be good.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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18-05-2022, 14:15
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
….
For a good finish (reduce print through) use 1708 material first layer with the random strands towards the core and the too layer with them facing outward, with more than needed resin on that top layer, followed by peel ply. I think it’ll be good.
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I’ll give that a try. It would be nice to use it for the single bulkhead in the main cabin for a start.
The bit that I really like about these composites is how the off-cuts can be combined to make a new panel. Having just cut the first set of stringers I have a whole bunch of triangles hanging around.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 18:03
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by coopec43
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Yes l have.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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18-05-2022, 22:34
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#28
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always in motion is the future
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 18,856
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by GILow
Yes l have.
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Then I’m guessing you have something against buying online, but like I wrote, working with glue guns is completely different when going for a professional version like I listed, and at $114 a no-brainer. I have 3 of the big box store glue guns and they are horrible and wasted money.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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18-05-2022, 23:46
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,126
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Re: Composite construction challenge
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi
Then I’m guessing you have something against buying online, but like I wrote, working with glue guns is completely different when going for a professional version like I listed, and at $114 a no-brainer. I have 3 of the big box store glue guns and they are horrible and wasted money.
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No, nothing against buying online. It's just a time and motion thing. Getting one in will take a few days, I'm already using the one I bought. It is adequate.
__________________
Refitting… again.
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19-05-2022, 01:05
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 639
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Re: Composite construction challenge
I've been following this thread with some interest. Pardon me for my ignorance.
Quote:
I’m using the panels edge-on to support the cabin sole.
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I thought honeycomb construction when used on its edge would have poor shear strength?
A previous poster suggested making your own f/g channel using a piece of wood as a mould/form, coated with release agent or wax. Keep in mind that plastic brown parcel tape might be easier & less time consuming than wax as epoxy doesn't adhere to it. Also great for masking off areas.
And as much as it might be an expensive purchase, perhaps a vacuum pump would enable you to vacuum bag some of your pieces which may achieve more uniform clamping pressure than clamps, or even get to places that clamps can't. You could even use vacuum bagging to form your f/g channel over the mould, without worrying about stray pieces of glass lifting.
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