Check Your Gas Locker Drain!

[Cadence]

I an afraid of LPG if not correctly maintained. If it is, it is the best for cooking. No need to fire up a large gen..

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...LPG on a boat is a very bad compromise if there are other options...

There are always other options, but this simply and obviously isn't true for most boats, particularly sailboats. LPG remains the the best and most popular choice. It is virtually universally available at reasonable cost. It burns cleanly with no unpleasant odor. It is quiet and efficient. It provides instant on and off and infinite temperature regulation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

There are always other options, but this simply and obviously isn't true for most boats, particularly sailboats. LPG remains the the best and most popular choice. It is virtually universally available at reasonable cost. It burns cleanly with no unpleasant odor. It is quiet and efficient. It provides instant on and off and infinite temperature regulation.

I expressed myself badly; thanks for calling me on it.

You are right that there are "always other options", but I would argue about LPG being clearly "the best". It depends on how much you care about the inevitable risks you have to take, and how much you value the trouble it takes to properly maintain a gas system on a boat.

You are also right that LPG remains the overwhelmingly most popular way to cook on cruising boats, but in my opinion (which is speculation, so wise men may disagree), LPG remains the most popular choice only out of habit and inertia. Only fairly recently did most sailboats start to have pretty robust electrical systems, with a lot of other electrical consumers on board. Electric cooking would never have worked on my father's boat, built in 1980 and lacking an inverter or generator and with only very small electrical loads. You would have had to redesign the whole electrical system and even then, you would be adding capacity which is not needed for other purposes, so not really rational.

Plus induction cooking hadn't even been invented yet.

So you would be choosing between LPG or alcohol or diesel, and with that choice, naturally LPG looks pretty good despite the risks and hassle.


But the world has moved on, and cruising boats have evolved, and today I think a large percentage of cruising boats could easily have electrical cooking and eliminate the dangerous LPG system. We don't do it much just because of habit and inertia, in my opinion.

LPG has other drawbacks besides safety. It is a hassle to source the fuel and hump it to the boat, in many places. It is yet another fuel on board, which you don't use for anything else. Gas locker takes up space. In Europe, it's not cheap compared to cooking with even own generated electrical power, much less unmetered shore power. I pay about $25 for 4.5kg of butane, and I can't get the bottles filled anywhere except the UK. The system requires maintenance and periodic recertification and that also costs money. I have to replace a $200 solenoid valve at least once every three years, for example , then hoses, gas alarm sensors, etc., etc. Can you tell how much I hate LPG?

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Only fairly recently did most sailboats start to have pretty robust electrical systems, with a lot of other electrical consumers on board. Electric cooking would never have worked on my father's boat, built in 1980 and lacking an inverter or generator and with only very small electrical loads. You would have had to redesign the whole electrical system and even then, you would be adding capacity which is not needed for other purposes, so not really rational.

Plus induction cooking hadn't even been invented yet.

But the world has moved on, and cruising boats have evolved, and today I think a large percentage of cruising boats could easily have electrical cooking )

I am genuinely curious about the electrical requirements of a system (involving induction cooking?) such as you more or less identify. Any actual information?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

I am genuinely curious about the electrical requirements of a system (involving induction cooking?) such as you more or less identify. Any actual information?

Sure.

Force 10 makes one:

FORCE 10 - Cooking Without Compromise - Products

It needs 5kW of installed capacity, which my generator could handle.

I know that for domestic use, you can buy induction stoves which limit total power to the maximum output of one burner -- by switching rapidly between the burners. This is supposed to work well since induction is so efficient, you rarely need full power in more than one burner. That would bring power down to 2.5kW or so, similar to my washing machine.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure.

Force 10 makes one:

FORCE 10 - Cooking Without Compromise - Products

It needs 5kW of installed capacity, which my generator could handle.

I know that for domestic use, you can buy induction stoves which limit total power to the maximum output of one burner -- by switching rapidly between the burners. This is supposed to work well since induction is so efficient, you rarely need full power in more than one burner. That would bring power down to 2.5kW or so, similar to my washing machine.

I am afraid you are buying into old unusable technology? If it where efficient everyone would have an induction range.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...LPG remains the most popular choice only out of habit and inertia...Can you tell how much I hate LPG?

Your hatred of LPG seems to be clouding your judgement.

LPG remains the most popular for the reasons I stated, not because of habit and inertia. Most chefs and and people who simply enjoy cooking prefer to do so with gas.

If this were only about mitigating risks... but it is not.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

......................... LPG has other drawbacks besides safety. It is a hassle to source the fuel and hump it to the boat, in many places. It is yet another fuel on board, which you don't use for anything else. Gas locker takes up space. In Europe, it's not cheap compared to cooking with even own generated electrical power, much less unmetered shore power. I pay about $25 for 4.5kg of butane, and I can't get the bottles filled anywhere except the UK. The system requires maintenance and periodic recertification and that also costs money. I have to replace a $200 solenoid valve at least once every three years, for example , then hoses, gas alarm sensors, etc., etc. Can you tell how much I hate LPG?

Yes, I can tell how much you hate LPG but you are misstating the facts in an attempt to make an incorrect point.

Nobody is forcing you to use LPG on your boat, but others don't share your opinion. You need to understand that.

[Yellowtulip]

Originally Posted by foufou

The propane locker drain could be checked by dropping small bb's down. If there is no trap they will roll on out

But if there is a trap, how do you get them out? High pressure air line might do it. Or it might just create the world's loudest whistle...

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Yellowtulip

But if there is a trap, how do you get them out? High pressure air line might do it. Or it might just create the world's loudest whistle...

If there's a trap, you need to eliminate it so you (or someone) will have to actually find the hose and reroute or support it so there is no trap. At that point, the balls will roll out on their own.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I am afraid you are buying into old unusable technology? If it where efficient everyone would have an induction range.

I do not think, at this point, Dockhead was "buying into" anything. He merely answered a question I had in response to ideas he had. Anyway, efficiency was not the point, it was safety primarily, and if (only if) induction heating works well enough for use it may have safety advantages over red hot coils on a boat in a seaway. I have neither form on board, and probably never will, but was curious.

Although I am just kidding about the following, which is inspired by the movie, "Airplane," there is very small (tiny) grain of truth: Cadence, you could lose your credence, if you do not allow others a modicum of clearance without interference.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Your hatred of LPG seems to be clouding your judgement.

LPG remains the most popular for the reasons I stated, not because of habit and inertia. Most chefs and and people who simply enjoy cooking prefer to do so with gas.

If this were only about mitigating risks... but it is not.

I certainly agree that cooking with gas is more pleasant. That's what I do on land.

But cooking on the new electric ranges is vastly better than on the old ones. Still not quite as good as gas, but it's gotten closer. Besides that, cooking on butane or propane on a boat stove is not the same as cooking on natural gas at home.

The experience of cooking may be a factor in some people's choices. But I would personally be willing to make a small compromise there, for the sake of the other advantages, and my next boat will definitely not have gas on board.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Yes, I can tell how much you hate LPG but you are misstating the facts in an attempt to make an incorrect point.

Nobody is forcing you to use LPG on your boat, but others don't share your opinion. You need to understand that.

This is a strange comment. What makes you think I don't understand that others have their own opinions?

As always, they do, and besides that, when choosing what to cook with, people simply have different priorities, so there is no universal right answer to the question of what to cook with.

As to the facts, I have carefully stated only correct ones. For example, it is objectively true and not disputable that propane is heavier than air, and that boats blow up every year from gas explosions. Maybe someone has some other facts to add to these, which I will be glad to hear. In any case, everyone will make up his own mind what to do with these facts, in his own particular case.

[Geek_Guy]

I read this post the other day. I too have LPG and have blithely gone through my days with it. No thoughts to the details.


This is the infinite value of this forum. To know what we simply didn't know before. In this case the details of how to minimize a danger.


Thanks.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

I do not think, at this point, Dockhead was "buying into" anything. He merely answered a question I had in response to ideas he had. Anyway, efficiency was not the point, it was safety primarily, and if (only if) induction heating works well enough for use it may have safety advantages over red hot coils on a boat in a seaway. I have neither form on board, and probably never will, but was curious.

Although I am just kidding about the following, which is inspired by the movie, "Airplane," there is very small (tiny) grain of truth: Cadence, you could lose your credence, if you do not allow others a modicum of clearance without interference.

Was Cadence and credence a play on words. I thought it was about LPG. Using induction is not efficient. It may be safer if LPG is not used correctly. I would go with the regular calrod coil prior to induction if firing up a gen..