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Old 11-01-2022, 07:54   #1
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Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

I have a question.
Is it possible to build a blue water catamaran with 6 masts? (3 masts on each hull).
Those masts will have (new technology) wing sails with non-manual but automated operation.
I know that it has been done but with 2 masts only, one on each hull. For example, on Energy Observer, Beneteau.
If it is possible then what will be involved. One thing, that this catamaran will have to be long??
Thanks in advance for comments.
John
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Old 11-01-2022, 08:04   #2
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Possible? Almost definitely. Practical, cost effective, works well, etc? That's a lot more questionable.
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Old 11-01-2022, 14:39   #3
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Of course it's possible (for a given value of "blue water" )
What will be involved? A non-troll to design and build it?
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Old 11-01-2022, 20:30   #4
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Presumably you are looking at freestanding masts? Otherwise such a mass of rigging....
Either way I suspect the engineering requirements will lead to small broken-up areas in each hull for the accommodation which is not ideal perhaps unless you were thinking of a pod cat.
One of the issues I see with wing sails is reefing them small enough for extreme conditions; having 6 of them could be a serious problem.
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Old 11-01-2022, 21:33   #5
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

I would recommend 8 masts as that's an integer exponent of the number 2....

But seriously, why? What are you hoping to achieve adding massive complication (even if they are free standing masts)?
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Old 11-01-2022, 23:04   #6
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Try Discussing with Chris White, the American designer

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com
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Old 12-01-2022, 06:00   #7
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Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

As a matter of fact it has been done already in France. They used a low profile hulls and rigged with windsurf sails and masts, crossed the Atlantic to if I remember Martinique.
If I recalled, the twins French brothers were involved. Maybe someone in the list with google skills can find it. Prior to that they also cross the Atlantic with a proa without instruments or charts. They kind of look like the Nelson twins

I found one of their voyages

http://www.creartisto.com/sansbousso...dition_en.html
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Old 12-01-2022, 09:20   #8
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevilleCat View Post
Presumably you are looking at freestanding masts? Otherwise such a mass of rigging....
Either way I suspect the engineering requirements will lead to small broken-up areas in each hull for the accommodation which is not ideal perhaps unless you were thinking of a pod cat.
One of the issues I see with wing sails is reefing them small enough for extreme conditions; having 6 of them could be a serious problem.

Hi, thanks for your comments.
Why do you see problems with wing sails? They can be pulled down quickly and easily ?? Also they are easier to handle than conventional sails, I think.

Many people ask why so many sails? - Larger area of sails so faster travel, isn't it so?

What do you think about buying an existing suitable used catamaran and alter it to my specifications with the masts?
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Old 12-01-2022, 10:24   #9
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

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Originally Posted by Johncobb View Post
Hi, thanks for your comments.
Why do you see problems with wing sails? They can be pulled down quickly and easily ?? Also they are easier to handle than conventional sails, I think.

Many people ask why so many sails? - Larger area of sails so faster travel, isn't it so?

What do you think about buying an existing suitable used catamaran and alter it to my specifications with the masts?
Google a bit about what an aspect ratio is in terms of sails and wings. That’s what’s probably wrong with 6 small sails. Overall result is rather stubby. Low aspect ratio.

Also all those free standing masts coming through the deck everywhere would be bad for interior design.

There is a reason all the fast cats and monos for that matter have Square top high aspect ratio sails, even if we are talking wing sails.

I came up with a GREAT design for an automated, easily controlled wing sail for my boat that I really wanted to do, but the cost of retrofitting the freestanding mast and the complexity of the installation was just too much with the rest of the boat build.
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Old 12-01-2022, 10:39   #10
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johncobb View Post
Hi, thanks for your comments.
Why do you see problems with wing sails? They can be pulled down quickly and easily ?? Also they are easier to handle than conventional sails, I think.

Many people ask why so many sails? - Larger area of sails so faster travel, isn't it so?

What do you think about buying an existing suitable used catamaran and alter it to my specifications with the masts?
There is mention of this idea here, I did not go thru all the pages here.
Good luck!
https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/m...ng-cats.25508/

Boatyarddog
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Old 13-01-2022, 03:45   #11
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

Thank you Boatyarddog,

I read this article already.
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Old 13-01-2022, 04:17   #12
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

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Originally Posted by Johncobb View Post
Hi, thanks for your comments.
Why do you see problems with wing sails? They can be pulled down quickly and easily ?? Also they are easier to handle than conventional sails, I think.

Many people ask why so many sails? - Larger area of sails so faster travel, isn't it so?

What do you think about buying an existing suitable used catamaran and alter it to my specifications with the masts?
Wing sails generally aren't removable/stowable/reefable (at least not easily). You allow them to feather into the wind, so they generate no lift...but in heavy storm conditions, that's easier said than done. In heavy winds, it's common to reef traditional sails as they can generate enough power to cause damage and often you want to slow down in rough waves anyway.

No, more sail area only provides more speed in certain conditions (generally light winds). Also, the wind higher up is typically faster than down close to the surface, so short stubby sails will be down low in slower wind. Plus there's a reason you no longer see biplanes or triplanes. They aren't more efficient.

Without major refit, using an existing catamaran is going to be difficult. A huge part of the design is how to handle the loads of the sail and rigging. Your 6 masts are not going to be in locations designed for the stresses, so you will have to redo the structure to accommodate the installation and the forces they generate.

If you want to do wing sails and in particular, multiple wing sails, you pretty much have to start from scratch for the design...but no one is building them because it's not very practical.
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Old 13-01-2022, 05:17   #13
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

I don’t imagine the op is talking about permanently constructed wingsails, is he?

I was envisioning the other type. The reefable, soft wing sails you can take down

This thing would be completely unmanageable with 6 hard wingsails to deal with.
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Old 15-01-2022, 05:36   #14
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

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I donít imagine the op is talking about permanently constructed wingsails, is he?

I was envisioning the other type. The reefable, soft wing sails you can take down

This thing would be completely unmanageable with 6 hard wingsails to deal with.

I think that you are correct.

Those wingsails with permanent sails are not suitable for my project or cruising catamaran, only maybe for racing cat.

I wanted to install wingsail that is furlable and reefable. There are such things.

Look at this one: https://cnim.com/en/oceanwingsr-smar...e-manufactured

This is called Ocanwings and it is fully-automated and computer controlled.

When we are talking about my project I would like to clarify that at this stage lets not talk about money and costs involved.

My main objectives are:

- Ease of controlling the boat - not pulling strings and ropes all the time, that's why I want fully-automated computer controlled sails.

- Fast boat - for situations where one has to outrun changing weather and also for very calm weather (that's why my idea for many masts and sails).

I know that my project is not a common catamaran, but something different. I have limited knowledge therefore I am asking for opinions, suggestions and ideas.
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Old 15-01-2022, 05:52   #15
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Re: Catamaran with 6 masts, is it possible?

If you are really curious Study how the center of effort of the sails and center of lateral resistance for the hull form below the waterline drive a sailboat.

If you can get the 6 sails and the hull form balanced the boat will work.

One can start with scale models to see the implications of a design.

Follow your curiosity,

Ben
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