Can I have it all in 28 feet ?

[hellosailor]

Mike-
First thing that comes to mind is that you will have a very heavily equipped small boat, which means HEAVY which means sluggish at times, and also a bit more of a loss at selling time when folks who want small also don't want all that gear and weight. But that's philosophy.

<<Batteries: 8 trojan 12V 27-AGM 100AH - 66 lbs each = 528 lbs !
...power input: 100 amp balmar alternator system>>

A bit of a mismatch there. For optimum setup, you don't want 8 12-volt batteries in parallel. I know, you need to be able to LIFT each one. The common compromise is to use 6-volt Trojans, set up two as one 12-volt battery, set up two more as the second 12-volt battery, and that's all. When you set up 12-volt batteries in parallel there are charge/discharge problems and you'll never get optimum life from them. Yes, people do it, and no, no battery maker recommends doing it if you have any other options. So, using 6V batteries you could set up two 100AH pairs but that's only half of what you're aiming at.
Which means you go one step further, and use 2.2 volt fork lift cells. Sold as cells, which are not batteries until you assemble them. Every industrial battery supplier sells these because fork lifts use HUGE batteries and they replace individual cells as needed. You'll buy six of these 2.2V cells, and make one huge 12V battery from them. And if that's still not enough power, you'll buy two 6v batteries to make the second (A/vs/B) smaller battery bank.
But eight (or even 4?) in parallel? Bad bad thing. They'll waste time discharging into each other and your regulator will never be addressing any one real battery to care for it properly.

[outislandmike]

hellosailor,
More study needed. I have used the 6V trojans in the past on smaller banks with good results. I was wanting to use the 12V to cut down on weight. (100 ah each @ 12V vs Two 6V @ 100 ah each = 200ah in series = 100ah 12V. Is it really that hard to get 800ah for 400 useable (50% discharge rate)?

[hellosailor]

Mike-
"I was wanting to use the 12V to cut down on weight. (100 ah each @ 12V vs Two 6V @ 100 ah each = 200ah in series = 100ah 12V." Sure, using one 12v Group31 can do it, and probably save you 10lbs. over using two 6V batteries. But those are all SMALL batteries, you can lift a Group31 12V solo. Now try lifting a 400AH 12V battery solo. And twisting around to get it into a battery box.<G>

" Is it really that hard to get 800ah for 400 useable (50% discharge rate)?" Not hard to get, but you cross out of the realm of "recreational" batteries into the realm of commercial/marine batteries.

A Group4D or 8D 12v is around 200Ah and 110-135 pounds. That's already heavier than most of us can casually lug, and only gives you 100Ah at the 50% cycle rate. Parallelling them to get more capacity is certainly possible--but every battery maker will tell you that is the wrong way to do it. They can and will cross-charge into each other (wasting power) and there's nothing to be gained over using 6V batteries or 2.2V industrial cells (which can have great capacity) and just bolting those up into your 12V battery.

Dunno what you'd need to get 800AH rating, I'm on dial-up this week and don't want to do that legwork the slow way.<G> The 2.2v cells are used in industrial fork lifts and other heavy equipment an on advantage of them is that you can check each cell, and if need be replace ONE bad cell without losing an entire battery bank.

If a 4D provides 200Ah and weighs 115 pounds...That would be about 450# for four of them combined the wrong way (parallel) to get 800Ah. I'd rather keep unit weights lower. (And remember, you need to affix them so they won't move if you roll over.)

[rtbates]

Good one Mike. Now what's the punch line?

randy

[outislandmike]

Randy,

Which part is the the funniest to you?

Mike

[rtbates]

I guess it would be the part where you actually think it's possible to 'have it all' in anything less than 500feet! Ok maybe the lower 100's, but not much smaller. I, by the way sail and plan on several retirement cruises in 3 years, aboard a Cape Dory25D. I'm pretty darn far away from 'having it all'. Bare bones as far as bring along 'stuff'. I make sacrifices so I can sail and crisue in a boat that I can trailer myself. In 28 feet, your 'all' had better not be much. Go charter for two weeks and see how it feels.

Best wishes and good luck

randy

[speedoo]

A lot of the issues have been presented to you, Mike, but I think the crucial thing is, are you and your wife certain that you will be comfortable living aboard this boat in the tropics for months at a time?

Certainly, before investing all this time and money in this boat, you should try to answer that question.

As a single guy, I've lived aboard a 32 footer and I cannot imagine living aboard a 28 footer with another person. But that's just me. I need a bigger boat than most.

on edit: Are you sure the windlass is necessary? Why not ditch the 45 pounder in favor of two smaller anchors (like delta 22 pounders for example) and use multiple anchors in a storm situation. If you must have a windlass, I'd go for a manual, and cut down your electrical requirements. How much chain are you planning to use?

[outislandmike]

Speedoo & Randy:
Good suggestions. OVERALL... My plan of a comfortable boat less than the "minimum 40' crowd" is to save money everywhere. Each foot over 30 drives all cost up geometrically, outfitting & operational. Is 28' "comfortable"? Well, the salon on the OI 28 is very large (as big as most 35' ers) with 6'2" headroom. Cockpit (tiller) is open & long. I really feel at ease in the spaces it offers. The sizes of everything will be much easier to deal with as we age. Windlass required. Many sizes anchors required.

I guess what I am trying to say is that tthe best I can tell, without living aboard for some time, is that I like my boat size & layout better than most 40 footers I have stayed on for short times. I posted to get the feedback everyone is offering. Thanks!

My post is mostly about... Why can't I have a very large battery bank (800 ah) since I have the room & weight capacity? Why can't I have a watermaker for convenience? We like to be clean. It also saves on weight of instead of more water storage. Why can't I have a windlass since I have deck space & power? Why can't I use the engine for making water & charging batteries? The horsepower required to do both will load the engine significantly at anchor, and the fuel will be about 1 quart an hour. Why can't I have quality refrigeration since space & power are available?

These are some of my thoughts on "having it all on 28 feet". Yes, I realize there are limits & tradeoffs. You can't tote a lot of stuff. After talking to several of my cruising friends, all said that they didn't use all the "stuff" anyway. A small towable / stowable dingy will be about the best I can use, however, is a hard bottom inflatable a necessity or just a luxury for coastal cruising? Again, tradeoffs.

How much TARGETED comfort & convenience can one put into a pocket coastal cruiser under 30 feet? What are the drawbacks?

I sincerely appreciate everyones input.

Thanks,
Mike

[hellosailor]

"Why can't I have ...since I have the room & weight capacity? "

A good question, Mike. What are the lines on the boat? What is the nominal draft and how far down will you push the boat if you load it up with the gear you have in mind? The battery bank should count as 2-3 crew and a 28' boat typically can take six. So with you and one other hand and the battery bank...you've still got a couple of hundred pounds available for other stowage. Maybe.<G>

Have you run the numbers yet? For all the gear and tankage you want, versus design loads for the boat?

Drawbacks under thirty feet? Mainly, there's room for a v-berth or a head, but not both unless you stick to a cedar bucket. (I'd rather skip the v-berth and have a full size head and shower.)

Oh, and the watermaker? Nice idea, but remember they are like all machines, they break down when least convenient, so you *still* need to carry enough water for any passage you are planning to make. Or abort. And that tankage weighs, again.

[speedoo]

"How much TARGETED comfort & convenience can one put into a pocket coastal cruiser under 30 feet? What are the drawbacks?"

Well Mike, I think hellosailor has identified a major drawback for you. The way you are loading up this boat, it's likely to be a very poor sailing boat that is less seaworthy, and possibly dangerous in that the boat will be more likely to capsize with the added gear. And if it's a poor sailing boat, you might as well trade it for a small trawler which would be far more comfortable and better able to handle all the weight you are adding, and likely have less draft. This is not sarcasm on my part, I'm quite serious. To me, a sailboat must sail well. If it does not, I'd rather not have it at all.

I see several contradictions in your arguments. For example you claim that a 30 footer is less expensive than a longer boat. That's true, but you seem to be ignoring the parallel truth: that a heavy boat is more expensive to operate than a light one.

[Cap'n Fitch]

Mike-
By now your into your cruise and you know that for a successful voyage it is need of funds to live etc. and part of that is being able to have comforts/need commodities like fresh water--- etc . And it's not a matter of value but the value and the quality of the life you lead aboard!!!
I like the twenty eight because it's big inside and looks easy to maneuver in tight quarters --- it doesn't draw much /it'll go under most bridges ---. So equip a way and enjoy, because no amount of money saving will buy you water in a saltwater bay--- when a shower might mean more than being clean!
Cap'n jim