Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-06-2019, 13:42   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Panama
Boat: Norseman 447
Posts: 1,626
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

You’re obviously fishing for a specific answer. Perhaps I’m being too literal in my thinking but I was taught that a dielectric is an insulator or typically a very poor conductor that can be polarized in an electric field. Hence they are used, in various forms, in capacitors. Has the definition changed?
Bycrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 13:53   #32
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 9,704
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

I think it has been very helpful to have these presentations on how to do connections. Much appreciated.

For the OP, though, the questions remain as to what this wire SERVES, it's purpose.

I would be much more hesitant with a butt splice on the alternator output because of the risk of damaging the alternator in case of splice failure. If to the starter, if the splice fails all you get is an engine that won't start.

If he wants to save the wire, he could crimp lugs on the ends and use the PP I suggested earlier.

His boat, his choice.

I'm still interested in what the wire does. Nosy old grouch that I am!
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 14:04   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
You’re obviously fishing for a specific answer. Perhaps I’m being too literal in my thinking but I was taught that a dielectric is an insulator or typically a very poor conductor that can be polarized in an electric field. Hence they are used, in various forms, in capacitors. Has the definition changed?
Not that I know of; the point is that a dielectric is an insulator, yet it is the most commonly recommended ointment (haha) to use on electrical connections, both threaded and friction-retained. Even though it is an insulator.

The ultimate point was that the solder in my examples is not the source of conductivity, but a better, more long lasting insurance of impermeability of the connections by corrosion-inducing water vapor than any crimped connection (i.e. the same function as dielectric grease, though solder has the advantage of also providing an [I think] molecular bond, and the strength associated with it). The primary source of electron transmission in the connections I'm describing is the contact between the wire strands and the terminal barrel.

I've had far more problems with crimped high-amperage connectors than with low, which is why I now crimp and solder every one I make (which, to date, has resolved the issues) . Of course, others are free to do as they please and find effective...
jimbunyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 14:24   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Or write more clearly. The first requirement of good written communication is that it be clear and unambiguous. I'm sure we can all think of several uses for the word in the context of a discussion of electrical connections.


If we are to consider only one word, Webster's says this:
Definition of dielectric



: a nonconductor of direct electric current
Yet sometimes it's better to let someone puzzle things out for themselves, especially when all the clues for resolving the conundrum are available to them in the original document.

The 'test' wasn't to 'ponder one word; dielectric' in isolation, but in connection and context with Bycricks' statement and implication that solder was not a good idea.
jimbunyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 15:08   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Panama City FL
Boat: Island Packet 32 Keel/CB
Posts: 995
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

This has been worked over pretty good. For the record I would not have a problem with a properly crimped butt splice covered with adhesive lined heat shrink if it was in a dry location that could be easily checked from time to time. Max wire size would be about #2 to 4 AWG.

To establish a baseline for my mindset on such matters, my main battery connections are crimped and soldered and connect to the lead posts not those auxiliary SS screw posts that most use.

Trojan (The battery Co not the latex outfit) did some tests once comparing just crimping to crimping and soldering. The crimped and soldered connections operated at a lower temperature. Don't remember all the particulars but their short write up is probably still around here somewhere.


Frankly
Frankly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 15:08   #36
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,568
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
... providing an [I think] molecular bond...

Since metals do not exist as molecules, not likely. Unlike welding, there is no mixing. The situation is more akin to glue, but different.


Suggesting that solder is a dielectric is cryptic on a good day. I would not consider that a clue. But the sealing function is valid.


A time when solder is a know problem is soldering the ends and them inserting into a screw clamp connector. The solder will soften with heat and the joint can come loose. This is mentioned in the NEC. Not a big problem on instrument leads, where we see this most often, but a bad idea on larger wires.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 15:15   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Hingham
Boat: Dickerson 37AC
Posts: 665
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

I rewired the cables on my boat recently and I ran new full length cables in almost every instance or had enough slack in the good quality original cables to do a new crimp.

But there were 2 instances where I needed to splice cable, the 1/0 windlass ground cable and the 2AWG ground feeding my panel. In both instances I used the highest quality Molex butt crimp lugs and my heavy duty crimper recommended by Maine Sail. In both instances the crimps came out great and I heat shrunk them and was sure to provide proper strain relief.

Obviously not ideal, but when faced with replacing 37' of 1/0 cable to the windlass or adding 3' to the negative bus bar, I chose the crimp.
sailah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 16:38   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Slidell, La.
Boat: Morgan Classic 33
Posts: 2,845
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Since metals do not exist as molecules, not likely. Unlike welding, there is no mixing. The situation is more akin to glue, but different.
Since you bring it up.

"Solder needs to do more than just melt and solidify, though. People seem to think of solder as some kind of “metal glue” — apply it as a liquid and let it become solid to lock a joint together. That’s only part of the picture, though. For a soldered joint to be electrically and mechanically sound, the solder needs to wet the metals to be joined. In the context of soldering, wetting is the process whereby the molten solder partially dissolves into the copper base metal, forming a region that’s part solder and part copper. This creates intermetallic bonding and it’s the key to soldering. In most solders, the molten tin is the primary solvent that dissolves into the copper substrate and forms the intermetallic bond that electrically and mechanically stabilizes the joint."


Quote:
Suggesting that solder is a dielectric is cryptic on a good day. I would not consider that a clue. But the sealing function is valid.
But...there was no suggestion that solder was a dielectric, the process described is analogous (but with added strength), not synonymous.

The point was illustrative; designed to show the over-simplification of Bycricks' suggestion that solder was in any way insufficient in properties necessary for it to fulfill the purpose for which it was proposed...and has been proved successful in that purpose at least millions of times.

Quote:
A time when solder is a know problem is soldering the ends and them inserting into a screw clamp connector. The solder will soften with heat and the joint can come loose. This is mentioned in the NEC. Not a big problem on instrument leads, where we see this most often, but a bad idea on larger wires.
Not sure why you bring this up, since it's not in the discussion, nor can I think of anyone but the rankest amateur who'd use those abominations on a boat, but, since this all started with butt splices I'll say that my unapproved and undescribed butt splice method uses solder only, and even when desoldered (as much as possible [wick and vacuum]), usually has to be cut to be disconnected...though sometimes a pair of visegrips will do...
jimbunyard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 18:50   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
My set of crimping related tools would cost over $4000 if bought new, several purchased from MS, only use UL 105° boat wire, and terminal / fittings from a very limited list of top vendors.

I do not consider anything related to this, to come under what I was referring to as skills.

My point is that knowledge and gear ensures repeatable crimping success, whereas doing the same with solder requires time, practice, technique. Some pick it up quickly, some never get it right.
Knowledge = skills. Good that you have all the nice gear. If you are knowledgeable enough to spend on MS tools then hopefully you also have the skills to choose the right tool wire and crimp for the right occasion. My point is that this crimping process is a little beyond the average monkey.
Being that you dont have a boat what has been your crimping experience with your UL 105 deg wire and MS crimpers?
Q Xopa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 19:26   #40
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,508
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
My set of crimping related tools would cost over $4000 if bought new, several purchased from MS, only use UL 105° boat wire, and terminal / fittings from a very limited list of top vendors.

I do not consider anything related to this, to come under what I was referring to as skills.

My point is that knowledge and gear ensures repeatable crimping success, whereas doing the same with solder requires time, practice, technique. Some pick it up quickly, some never get it right.
There are men who have studied a task and found the path to maintain perfection for that specific task with excellence and spare no patience for others not as skilled.

I appreciate these men. Their skills become art forms. I have none of these skills.

But I am a sailor. I must go to sea. The Zen of creating a perfect butt splice does nothing to get my yacht out onto the sea, however I know if it had those perfect butt splices it would be a better yacht, for sure, but probably be shore bound forever, with me trying to achieve nautical nirvana.

So, for those who reach for the perfection of a perfect butt splice, I bow down to you, and sail away.
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 19:53   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Not a criticism, as I use a butt splice method that I'm sure most here would label cowboyish, and won't disclose it to save hassle (though I've used it for decades and never had a failure), but I'm pretty sure that the method you describe, if it matters to you, doesn't meet AYBC guidelines, which I think require soldered connections to be crimped as well.


Since I've not commented on the 'solder question' in a few years, I'll offer a few considerations, in no particular order.

Airplanes and aerospace vehicles are not boats and cars. The differences in environment alone make any comparison almost moot; throw in the inspection and (I assume) certification requirements for aircraft and most comparisons are entirely moot.

Both soldering and crimping are not 'monkey-trainable', not because they can't be (pretty much) learned by rote, but because determining if the results are acceptable cannot. I.e the skill comes in when inspecting either type connection .

I always use both crimping and soldering, and can recall no failures in well executed connections. When soldering in less than ideal conditions (blackened wires, old oxidized terminals etc. [which I would use only for personal projects or in extenuating circumstances]), proper preparation can yield serviceable connections, but they are always considered temporary. Though generally they are superior to 'average' crimped connections, in longevity and conductiveness.

In my experience and opinion, crimped-only connections are prone to failure eventually. While a 'gas tight' crimp will be good for a time, even a substantial time, eventually, heating and cooling of the crimp, and differential expansion caused by the difference between stranded wire and solid terminal barrel walls will allow moisture in and with it, corrosion will inevitably form.

I have innumerable instances of this happening, in manufacturer-supplied equipment (if the manufacturer can't make a 'proper' crimp, who can?) and sizes ranging from 20 gauge wire to 4/0 cable.

I've had some luck avoiding corrosion in crimp-only connections by dipping the wire into a corrosion inhibitor before crimping.

Certainly, knowing what one's doing is the key to making successful, long-lasting electrical connections. Neither crimping nor soldering is particularly difficult, but like anything else, technique and practice are what is required.

A well-rounded boatwright should have both techniques in his repertoire...
A crimps job is to provide a reliable connection. Im pretty sure it doesnt care if its bobbing on the brine, flying or driving. Im also pretty sure for it to function it doesnt really care if its certified or using Insurance lab tested wire.

The aircraft I am working on are SAR helicopters that hover winching over the ocean in the rotor wash salt spray. You might have seen some aircraft land on the sea. Or even cars that drive on salty de iced roads. Im interested to hear how completely different that is to sailboats environment or requirements.

From what I have seen of AYBC, USCG, EASA, FAA wiring guideines they are all shooting for the same aims and have mostly come up with the same conclusions how to achieve it. Again Id be interested to hear from you how different, moot and unrelated they are.
Q Xopa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 20:04   #42
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,508
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q Xopa View Post
A crimps job is to provide a reliable connection. Im pretty sure it doesnt care if its bobbing on the brine, flying or driving. Im also pretty sure for it to function it doesnt really care if its certified or using Insurance lab tested wire.
One difference is that crimped connections on a boat are often subjected to moist, salt infused, air. Unless you are really a perfectionist in making your crimped connection water and air tight, you will likely see corrosion on the positive wire at the point where it is crimped. (bare wire will turn green).

So maybe it will work really well in a car or airplane, but in a boat, it will be subject to early failure. Mine always are. I know it. I do it anyhow because it is faster.
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 20:17   #43
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Since the terminal is a closed-end seamless barrel and of course you use adhesive-lined heat-shrink, how would you ever get much less see any corrosion?

https://shop.pkys.com/assets/images/...ss-Section.png

https://images.jamestowndistributors.../anc-11295.jpg
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 20:25   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Panama, Central America
Boat: CT 49, 1989
Posts: 969
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingssail View Post
One difference is that crimped connections on a boat are often subjected to moist, salt infused, air. Unless you are really a perfectionist in making your crimped connection water and air tight, you will likely see corrosion on the positive wire at the point where it is crimped. (bare wire will turn green).

So maybe it will work really well in a car or airplane, but in a boat, it will be subject to early failure. Mine always are. I know it. I do it anyhow because it is faster.
I think I may have mentioned that the aircraft I work on, and many others also spend a lot of time in moist salty environments like hovering over the ocean in salt spray, too.

Do you use 'marine' tinned wire that AYBC recommends? Its aim is to slow up the green corrosion you. It sounds like youd be suprised to know aircraft can suffer corrosion issues too.
Q Xopa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2019, 20:25   #45
Registered User
 
wingssail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: On Vessel WINGS, wherever there's an ocean, currently in Mexico
Boat: Serendipity 43
Posts: 5,508
Send a message via AIM to wingssail Send a message via Skype™ to wingssail
Re: Butt Splicing from Battery to Engine??

Quote:
Originally Posted by john61ct View Post
Since the terminal is a closed-end seamless barrel and of course you use adhesive-lined heat-shrink, how would you ever get much less see any corrosion?

https://shop.pkys.com/assets/images/...ss-Section.png

https://images.jamestowndistributors.../anc-11295.jpg
Yes, these are perfect. However the OP was inquiring about butt connectors.

Now, possibly there are perfect butt connectors available, and the right techniques exist to use them, however, I do not carry a 5 year's supply of every type of connector on my yacht (I am not an Idaho survivalist).

So I have had to refresh my stock many times in 3rd world locations where you get what is available, and therefore, for myself, and for some others of us who actually go places, you have to compromise.

And then, corrosion gets in.
__________________
These lines upon my face tell you the story of who I am but these stories don't mean anything
when you've got no one to tell them to Fred Roswold Wings https://wingssail.blogspot.com/
wingssail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
battery, engine

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lighting Protection - From Mast or From Butt Plate ? arjand Construction, Maintenance & Refit 34 28-02-2012 17:00
The Straits Kicked My Butt Today Strait Shooter Challenges 19 06-05-2011 05:05
Nothing Like a Kick in the Butt to Overcome Inertia SabreKai Liveaboard's Forum 16 05-07-2010 01:41

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:24.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.